In this week’s Mailbag, Stephen “Breadman” Edwards discusses more of your mythical matches, looks ahead to Benavidez-Morrell, talks about his professional admiration for Ronnie Shields, and discusses the engine of world heavyweight champion Oleksandr Usyk
Really look forward to your mailbag every week. Which I’ve been reading for years. Agree on your take on Tyson Fury’s standing as an ATG heavyweight. He doesn’t have the long reigning run and professionalism of like Louis, Holmes, Wlad Klitchko and the resume of Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Usyk who literally fought everyone they could. But I’d put him in the bracket of Tyson, Bowe, whose outside problems and lack of dedication stopped them from having the longevity to go along with their talent. They were capable at their peak in competing and beating fighters held historically over them. What I don’t agree on are the names you said he could have fought. Except Joshua, Dubois, Joyce, Bakole, Zhang, have only just came on the radar of championship contention. Fury was No. 1 back in 2015 and was fighting a trilogy against Wilder, and looking for undisputed. He won everything in the division except undisputed, and was Ring Fighter of the Year twice. Keep up the good work and all the best. Mythical matchups Bowe vs Holmes, Moorer vs Usyk at heavyweight
JJ B
Bread’s Response: Here is the thing. Fury beat Wlad in 2015. He took off until 2018. He fought two comeback fights, then he fought Wilder in December of 2018 not 2015. So he screwed up his own momentum. So Dubois, Joyce, Bakole and Zhang weren’t relevant in 2015-18. But they were when he came back and he’s yet to fight any of them. That’s a lot of food left on the table.
I’m not a person who likes to dissect resumes. I believe a champion is fulfilling his duty by simply defending consistently vs the best available contender. Fury didn’t do that. Larry Holmes for example does not have a list of great fighters on his resume for his 20 title defenses. He didn’t even unify. But he fought Ring rated fighter, after Ring rated fighter for seven years. That alone makes him a top five heavyweight ever. Fury could be in that league but he just didn’t do enough.
Fury won a huge fight vs a legend in Klitschko. Then his personal issues surfaced and it cost him. He came back and went after Wilder but besides the Wilder fights, he never really lined up contender after contender. Riddick Bowe and Tyson Fury is a solid comparison because both self-destructed, although they’re both great fighters. But Mike Tyson unified, lined up all of the best contenders of the mid 80s and beat all of them. He didn’t take off of 3 years. He went to jail for 3 years. That’s a huge difference. Then he got out of jail and fought for the WBC and WBA titles. People can say what they want about Mike Tyson, but he was more eager to face tough competition than Tyson Fury.
Bowe vs Holmes is a very tough fight to call. They would have to fight three times. I would take Holmes to win the tiebreaker, simply because he’s not as lazy. That counts in close fights.
Usyk vs Moorer is a match up I love Usyk in. He just does everything better. I see Usyk as the clear winner and clear superior fighter.
Assalaam alaykum Mr Edwards, I hope this finds you well and that you and yours are enjoying an excellent start to the new year. I wanted to reach out to you concerning the fading from prominence of Al Haymon’s PBC banner and the future prospects for some of the promotion’s top stars. We’ve already discussed Deontay Wilder’s hall of fame credentials. While his prospects may have diminished with Tyson Fury’s second loss to Usyk, I think he will still eventually get on the ballot and I still like his chances of getting in at some point. My question concerns the PBC’s other fighters’ chances to get into the IBHOF. I’ve started to think about it as rumors swirl around Gervonta Davis’ retirement and as Errol Spence’s return to the ring seems no closer now than a year ago. I think those two fighters, along with Jermell Charlo, represent the best chance for PBC to have a fighter who primarily fought under its banner to enter into the hall of fame. I think Errol Spence, as a unified three-belt champion, represents a near lock for the HOF. I think Jermell Charlo also has a great case. Or at least both are close and would be locks with another belt or big win. I don’t think Tank gets in if he retires today. That said, I could be wrong. I’ve mentioned before how I believe the biggest knock against PBC fighters is that none of them, with the exception of Floyd Mayweather (if we consider him a PBC fighter), have ever unified titles against an opponent from a different promotion. It’s become even more of a pronounced detraction since the fighters who attempted to unify against non-PBC champions have recently lost so dramatically. See Wilder against Fury, Parker and Zhang, Spence against Crawford, Fulton against Inoue, and Tszyu against Murtazaliev. If the perception of the PBC, particularly outside the US, continues to decline, and if PBC fighters continue to be on the losing end of one-sided beatdowns when they “cross the street” (to use the term that the PBC popularized), how do you like their fighters’ chances of getting into the HOF? I also think this is relevant based on your comments in the January 4 mailbag that so many American fighters are fighting for money (and talking about fighting for money) rather than fighting for more than just financial security. Are any PBC fighters locks for the hall of fame in your opinion? Are there any who could improve their chances with wins against non-PBC champions? Are there any who can get in only other PBC fighters in the future?
Thank you for everything you do for this sport. I send all the very best to you and yours.
Bread’s Response: You know what..You make some great points. Although Wilder vs Parker and Zhang were not unification fights. I get your point about PBC fighters crossing the street in big fights. In big fights, they have lost more than they have won, and when this happens often, it lessens the value of the stable. I’m not going to argue the truth.
Floyd Mayweather won some huge fights vs Mosley, Cotto, Canelo and Pacquiao. Those fights are an even bigger deal because they were cross the street type of fights. But that’s why he’s Floyd Mayweather. Mayweather is a generational talent.
Errol Spence did go to the UK to beat Kell Brook, which is a big deal in my opinion. Tank Davis beat Ryan Garcia is a massive fight. Andy Ruiz beat Anthony Joshua in a big upset. Other than that, I may be wrong but I can’t think of another significant PBC win vs an elite fighter not in their stable. You gave me something to think about and I’m thinking. I think you’re correct.
Shawn Porter is a career long PBC fighter. He just recently made the HOF ballot. If Porter made the ballot, Spence, Tank, Charlo brothers, Lara, Thurman and Danny Garcia will make the ballot. If you ask me, who gets in, I think Spence has the best chance but I don’t doubt Tank’s chances.
The media is not as high on PBC fighters. The media votes for the HOF. The PBC has never had the No. 1 P4P besides Floyd Mayweather. I find that interesting because I believe guys like Tank and Benavidez should be firm within the P4P top 10 but they aren’t locks.
All of the guys I named are a significant victory vs an elite fighter away from improving their chances. For example, if Tank Davis beats Shakur Stevenson the narrative changes on his career. If David Benavidez beats Bivol or Beterbiev for all of the belts, then his chances skyrocket. Good question.
Hello Mr. Edwards, Following boxing for 35+ years and have always wondered about a number of things. During a fight, when seeing a body shot incoming, do fighters exhale, or tense up the abdominal area/body quickly before it lands? Both? When getting ready to throw a double or triple punch combination, do fighters inhale deeply right before, and then exhale as they are throwing the combo? When coaches/trainers repeatedly yell out things like “double the jab” or “left hook”, are they unfortunately giving the opposing fighter and corner a chance to pick up on the fight plan and/or brace for what’s coming next? In training, do trainers ever have sparring partners purposely try to step on or tangle the feet of a fighter to practice getting free? How about having a fighter fall to the canvas in an imaginary knockdown or accidental trip situation – to get them ready for/used to the possibility of the unexpected? Or is this too much of a risk for injury? Thanks very much for your weekly insights, they are greatly appreciated.
Bread’s Response: When a fighter is about to take a body shot, they tighten up their core and when you tighten up you instinctively inhale.
When fighters rip off combinations, they are supposed to inhale before they start and exhale as they punch. But not all do. It’s called letting the air out of the shot.
When coaches yell out instructions, the opposing fighter can hear it. But sometimes you have to do that. And here is the thing, the opposing fighter still has to process what he heard and defend it. It’s not so easy, trust me.
I don’t know what other trainers do, but I don’t tell my guys to step on anyone’s feet in the gym.
A knockdown is hard to replicate because the fighter is usually hurt when they happen. Coping with being hurt is something you have to sort of acquire over time in sparring.
Hello Breadman, It is being reported that Boots Ennis maybe getting a unification fight against Stanionis. I hope this fight gets made. My question is out of the other three Champions a 147 – Stanionis, Barrios, Norman Jnr, which is the hardest fight for Boots and in what order do you rank the Champions at 147?
Bread’s Response: Lots of people had lots of things to say about Boots. So he did what he said he was going to do. Fight a unification at welterweight. You can’t complain or critique that. Let’s remember Stanionis is the fighter that Ortiz had to pull out of fights with multiple times, so the public sentiment can’t change now that Boots is fighting him.
I think he’s the best out of the other three champions. This fight should also be for the Ring belt, because I think Boots and Stanionis are the best two fighters in the division. If you’re asking me to rank the champions at 147. I would say:
4. Barrios
Hey Bread, Happy New Year and God bless you. I wish you good luck and good health. Long time boxing fan. Haven’t read much of the Breadbag lately nor have I wrote in in a while. Between the VA and the hustle and bustle of life, I’m busy lately. I’m launching an online business early next year but I did read your mailbag last Saturday. I find it interesting that a boxing fan doesn’t appreciate mythical matchups. Personally, I appreciate MM’s as educated conversation between knowledgeable fans pitting one fighter’s strengths and weaknesses against the strengths and weaknesses of another fighter… in a completely different era. And you come across the rare kind that incorporate the intangibles, habits and tendencies to come to a hypothetical outcome. One of my favorite is Muhammad Ali vs Mike Tyson. I have Ali winning by stoppage; mid to late rounds. Ali was too long for Mike and Tyson wouldn’t get the leverage to shoot, he gets taken into deep waters and drowns. I also have my gripes. There’s a specific aspect of a grading system that I’m critical of. It might be for the P4P list. And the aspect is the category, current and former champions faced. I feel that part should be separate prerequisites for lofty positions. I feel this way because I feel that this rating prerequisite discourages fighters from facing other fighters at their best. Which brings me to Turki. He’s making the right fights at the right time. It’s a breath of fresh air. Will we see Tank at Riyadh Season? Personally I don’t think so. He’s a pretty good fighter. I was a big fan. These days I’m more in line with Keyshawn Davis. My knock on Tank is that he’s a grown man, he should be fighting 135lbers. But it’s prize fighting. If it’s not broken don’t fix it. As for Bud vs Canelo, it’s a bad fight for Bud. I don’t like it. I feel he’s cashing out. If that’s the case I can support that. Can he win? Definitely! Boxing logic though. That’s a lot of weight. If he wins. For me it would solidify the No. 1 p4p spot before he hangs em up. If he loses, I wouldn’t be surprised if Tank calls him out. Those would be the perfect timing to catch TC, he’d no longer be the hunter. Happy new year.
Bread’s Response: You think Canelo is a bad fight for Bud. Most people do and it’s why the match up is so intriguing. The stakes would be huge. Mexican vs Black has been the PPV go to for the last 20 years. On top of that if Bud wins, he’s the fighter of this generation. And Canelo can’t lose to a fighter jumping two weight divisions and keep his legacy intact.
I won’t even discuss Bud vs Tank. It’s just mental gymnastics at this point.
Hey Bread, Still thinking about the Usyk-Fury fights. My question is where does his engine rank all time at heavyweight? I don’t think I’ve ever seen him tired. Maybe he would with different opponents? Frazier seems like he could tire anyone. I heard something about him sparring 15-four minutes rounds and the whole session restarts if he touches the ropes (which sounds like an exaggeration). Thanks, Sam
Bread’s Response: Where does Usyk’s engine rank all time at heavyweight? Ok let’s see. Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Ezzard Charles, Muhammad Ali and Usyk all have elite engines. Usyk’s engine is on par with any big man in history.
If David Morrell defeats David Benavidez, what will it do to the narrative about Saul Alvarez ducking Benavidez? If Morrell beats Benavidez, would it be fair to say the “Alvarez is ducking Benavidez” narrative was constructed too quickly?
Bread’s Response: No. Morrell beating Benavidez at 175lbs, several years after Benavidez was Canelo’s No. 1 contender at 168lbs have nothing to do with each other. That line of thinking is just justification for certain fan bases when a threatening opponent to their favorite fighter loses. What David Morrell does with Benavidez has nothing to do with what Canelo may have or may have not done with Benavidez. Canelo didn’t fight him. Morrell is going to Saturday night. Canelo can’t get credit for what Morrell does. No offense at all but that’s a flawed logic.
Hello Breadman, When was the golden era for Philly boxing? I ask because it was interesting you mentioned a local promoter and I have been thinking for a short while that there is potential for a golden era in Philly to develop right around now. I saw some footage of Greg Hackett working with Boots. You guys have some serious knowledge in Philly and some quality talent there too, seems like there is a melting pot of conditions… A little surprised Eddie, a large promoter, hasn’t tried to develop this angle. As I say, if I see a guy is from Philly I expect a REAL fight. I never write off any ‘B-side’ from Philly. Looking forward to seeing what you do with this puncher you have Erron Peterson. He looks like he can punch-punch. On Canelo-Crawford, I will say that I find it hard to pick against Crawford full stop. However, I also find it hard to pick FOR him in this matchup. I can’t call it right now. Will watch tape if it gets signed. The two things that stand out to me though are Canelo visibly looks old now he is vulnerable for the right opponent, and I didn’t like how Crawford looked in his last fight. It’s nothing about how Madrimov is a good fighter either, which he is and I might even bet him to beat Vergil Ortiz. It’s that to my eye he for the first time had slightly jittery ‘old man movements’. I would like to see one more fight from him at a higher weight to see if it was just ring rust. Crawford was hurt worst against Mean Machine, Gamboa from that long ago isn’t that relevant a data point other than it probably shows Crawford was weight drained as his chin seems better at the higher weights, like Cotto. If I had to pick right now, I suspect Canelo gets out to an early lead before Crawford has more clear success later when Canelo tires, close draw-ish type fight, unless one can hurt the other. To add to your list of annoyances in boxing, I hate uneducated commentary. I won’t name names but some of these analysts-commentators are stealing a living. They make me shout at the screen sometimes! A commentator should be informative or entertaining. Too many of them are neither! Much Respect
Bread’s Response: I think Philly had several Golden Eras. And one thing we must consider, is that while you’re in the middle of a Golden Era, you don’t usually acknowledge it until you look back on it. So I think the early to mid 70s when Philly had four middleweight contenders in Cyclone Hart, Bennie Briscoe, Willie Monroe and Bobby Watts was a Golden era.
I feel like the early 80s when Matthew Saad Muhammad and Jeff Chandler forged two HOF careers simultaneously was a Golden Era.
I also feel like recently we were in the midst of a Golden Era and no one really realized it. Danny Garcia, Julian Williams, Tevin Farmer, Stephen Fulton and Jaron Ennis were all world champions within five years of each other. There are more Golden Eras of Philly Boxing before I was born.
I didn’t think Crawford looked bad vs Madrimov. I am going to watch it again. But my initial impression is that Madrimov is better than given credit for and that Crawford was a little thrown off by his rhythm. But to be fair, I will study the fight again.
That being said, great fighters have those nights. Every single great fighter in history has had that night in the middle of their reigns of greatness. If it happens in multiple fights in a short period of time, I would be more concerned. But Crawford had been on a vicious six year KO run and he had just come off of one of the perfect fights of his generation vs Errol Spence. After a fight like that, the expectations are so high, it’s hard to outperform.
Think of great fighters who had perfect performances, then think about their very next fight. It’s usually a slight come down performance.
I don’t think Crawford needs to test the waters at 168 before he fights Canelo. He’s a first ballot HOF. He wants to go straight to the beast. He’s not 27, he’s 37. Michael Spinks went straight to Larry Holmes. Sugar Ray Leonard went straight to Marvin Hagler. Sometimes fighters can defy logic. Crawford doesn’t need anymore wear and tear on him. I don’t blame him for wanting to go straight to Canelo. Often times fighters get to a point where they need to get up for special opponents. Canelo is that guy for Crawford. That’s his Super Bowl fight.
Hey Bread, Got to tell you something about Devin. I used to like him, when he was moving up, because of a mix of talents, belief in himself and the future and a certain uncertainty. I don’t like him very much nowadays, maybe I even dislike him since his ego broke the boundaries of his own head. The fact is he is not a Floyd kind of boy, who can be arrogant as hell, but so good inside the ring you keep watching his fight – half hoping somebody will shut his mouth and take his 0 and half in awe with his skills and the ways he finds to win no matter what. And he does not have either Mayweather’s grit, the one he had in front of Mosley (no, we don’t touch gloves… until I tamed you); we saw that with Linares, and a little bit with Garcia. Maybe I am tough on him. It is a raw feeling. Maybe the Loma result blurs my vision. I sort of give a pass on Garcia with the PEDs, even though I should not, or at least am easy on him, because of his incredible insecurities. I think one can root for him in fights not despite, but because of his flaws. Which makes me think, this is something I recently figured out I like in a boxer: the thrills of “he can lose, but (usually) doesn’t”. This is what I love about Crawford (or one of the things I like about my favorite boxer): every time I watch him live, I’m scared he could lose, my heart is drumming like in a Metallica concert (I don’t know anything about music), and I’m so relieved and happy when he wins. I didn’t feel all that much in his last fight with Madrimov, as I did not think he could be in danger (I scored the fight 115-113 Crawford). I started to watch boxing with Prince Naseem, so it is surely something in the roots of my love for the sport. It’s something I liked with Manny and Oscar. Something I love about Inoue (I saw him live for the first time in Donaire 1, and even my wife loved the fight, and still asks me about him). I wonder if you experience the same? The love for a fighter who gives you cold sweats? My best to you, Nicolas
Bread’s Response: You have a right to your opinion but I think Devin is a nice kid. I don’t really view him as arrogant or insufferable. I don’t really understand what you mean by Devin is not a Floyd kind of boy….But Devin is Devin and Floyd is Floyd. Floyd is one of the best fighters ever. Some say top 10. So it’s not fair to compare Devin to him at this moment. It’s not fair to compare anyone to Floyd who is 25 years old. Floyd did it for too long and it’s just an off comparison.
I used love fighters like Ray Leonard, Evander Holyfield and Felix Trinidad to a point where I couldn’t sit down when they were fighting. But since I have been involved in boxing as a profession I don’t get like that about any fighter that I don’t train.
Hey Bread, I have a few things I’d like to discuss, firstly the use of PEDS. I’ve noticed Canelo get a lot of shit talk on here about this. The steroid in question being clenbuterol. I’m not sure of your knowledge on PEDS, but I have a bit and have used clenbuterrol personally. In no way shape or form does this give you a advantage outside of cutting weight that’s why you’ll see boxers struggling to make weight take this but they are not educated in the matter as clen causes cramping, and severe lactic acid burn. I know because I’ve taken this. Also clen is not a steroid. I guess my question is how much do you think this may have helped Canelo? As you say, the game is to be sold not told and this couldn’t be more truthful.
Do you notice in camp if a sparring partner is getting the better of you over the few weeks, he will educate you some but definitely lie about how he’s getting you or found your flaw. How can this be rectified?
Two fights I’d like your opinion on, Martinez vs Chavez. A lot of people said it was an ass-whooping except the 12th. However, if you watch closely everytime Chavez was inside he was hitting him with good shots. I believe the 12th was a accumulation of the previous 11.
Trinidad vs De La Hoya: I’ve watched this fight 1,000 times and am convinced Tito won. Oscar did nothing but pitter paddy and they say he got on his bike for the last rounds. While this is true, he had no choice because he was exhausted and getting bullied. Also Oscar called the shots then. The fact that there was no rematch says it all to me. Yes I’m biased toward Tito. Love him with all my heart! Thoughts on all the above? Thanks, Jamie
Bread’s Response: Boxing is a weight based sport. Camps are anywhere from 6 to 12 weeks of hard work. Losing weight and still being strong is the major struggle in camp. Most of the banned PEDS are drugs that allow you to keep your strength while cutting weight. So if one of them is in your system, you test positive.
I never get into if it really helped the fighter or not. I never get into why it was in his system. If it was in his system and it shouldn’t be, then the fighter is responsible, period. I think our burden of guilt is too wide. I don’t think we should even try to determine if it had an effect on him or not because we don’t have a way of really determining that.
The same way you said it really doesn’t have an effect, there are people who say it does. My only concern is if it was on the banned list at the time he ingested it.
I also know guilty people in general usually admit guilt with a buffer. Just think about every person you know who gets caught doing something. If a person is caught cheating in their marriage, they don’t say they cheated because they simply like sex from multiple people. They say stuff like my spouse wasn’t paying me any attention so I sought attention elsewhere. They never give the raw truth.
In baseball Pete Rose said, I gambled but not on my team….
In boxing now when someone gets caught, the common excuse is, I only took it to cut weight. They never say I took it for my stamina and more power. Seriously, not one fighter who has ever been caught has said that I took PEDS to punch harder and not get tired. So, for me personally, I don’t even consider what the person’s intent was with the PEDS. And I don’t consider if it helped him or not.
The only case that I have seen where I heard a plausible excuse was Roy Jones’s. The only reason I consider his excuse plausible was because it was proven that the Rip Fuel he used was tainted with a banned substance. And his opponent who also tested positive used the same supplement and tested positive for the same thing.
For the record I’m not saying Roy Jones was innocent. He had a banned substance in his system. But I am saying his excuse was plausible after reviewing the facts, especially considering his opponent in the same fight used the same supplement and got the same test results.
Also, I don’t talk about Canelo’s positive test unless one of you guys write in about it…
I agree with you about Chavez vs Martinez. Chavez was landing a left hook to the body, over and over. And he wasn’t winning but he was wearing Martinez out who is a high energy fighter. I only agree partially about Oscar vs Tito. I’m a Tito guy, but Oscar won that fight. He just did. They jobbed Oscar.
Oscar didn’t run the last four rounds. He won the 9th. He moved in 10, 11 and 12. So the myth is over exaggerated. He lost the last 3 rounds. Not the last 4 rounds. He also won at least 7 out of the first 9 rounds. Maybe 8. And when a judge gave Oscar the 12th, although he clearly lost it, I believe that was to make the fight appear close because he didn’t want to have Tito winning by too wide of margin. Basically it appears to me that the judge was round counting.
But I do agree that Oscar felt Tito coming on. There is no way they shouldn’t have had a rematch and Tito would’ve been tougher at 154.
What’s up Bread, hope all is well. My question is why don’t Ronnie Shields get the respect put on his name properly amongst media and popular boxing people? He’s been working with some of the best and built up some of the best fighters from scratch as well only to not get the credit he deserves. Sweet Pea, Evander, Tyson, Jermain Taylor, Vernon Forrest, the Charlo brothers, and the list goes on and on that’s just some of his work. With that being said he has a big fight coming up this weekend, and from what I’ve been seeing and hearing from Morrell’s camp vs seeing from the Monster’s camp I’m leaning more towards the training experience that I know with a fighter that won’t be be bullied in weight and power come fight vs the usual when it comes to Benavidez’s opponents. Am I missing something in this fight? Because on the flip side I see JRock is fighting a Ronnie Shields fighter in March, and I’m wondering first are you training him for the fight because I think the young might be in over his head with you in JRock’s corner. Insight please, Thanks FlintowntoAz
Bread’s Response: I was undefeated as an amateur trainer and professional trainer from 2010-16. I trained six different fighters amateur and professional and not one took a loss until 2016. Ronnie Shields gave me my first two losses. So I really respect him and I told him so. I know he’s a good trainer.
I think there are several reasons why he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. One is his personality is unassuming. He doesn’t seek camera attention. He’s a quiet guy who goes about his work. But the most important thing is the perception that is created by the media.
When Ronnie had the members of the US Olympic teams, he wasn’t considered the head trainer. He was looked at as being part of the team.
When Vernon Forest beat Shane Mosley, the media gave Al Mitchell the credit and overlooked Ronnie.
Then when Ronnie brought the Charlo Brothers along, if you remember Jermell left and started scoring KOs under Derrick James. So James later won Trainer of the Year because of his work with Jermell and Errol Spence. And again the perception of that, slighted Ronnie.
The one thing I also noticed about fighters, not specifically Ronnie’s fighters, but fighters in general is they rarely give their trainers props publicly. I see them thank their managers, parents, partners etc but never thank their trainers. Watch them very closely. They indirectly but consistently devalue their trainers by never giving them props.
All in all Ronnie Shields is a Hall of Fame trainer by any metric and I respect him. I’m glad to call him a colleague and I’m honored to go up against him.
I favor Benavidez to win the fight, but if Morrell pulls it off, Ronnie should be front runner for the Trainer of the Year. Sometimes the award is for the most connected trainer instead who had the best year.
Yes I am training Julian Williams. And yes we are going up against Yoenis Tellez, a Ronnie Shields trained fighter. I look forward to it.
Read the full article here
