In this week’s mailbag, trainer Stephen “Breadman” Edwards looks back on the undisputed light heavyweight bout between Artur Beterbiev and Dmitry Bivol, assesses how to score, looks at the cards and also addresses the immediate future of the 175lbs greats.
Hey Bread, I am not sure if someone poisoned the water, but if you tuned into boxing for the first time this past weekend, the broadcast team would have had you believe Bivol was the greatest pugilist that has ever laced them up. The obvious bias was staggering, but not uncommon in our sport. At the end of the fight, I figured it was either a draw or 115-113 for Beterbiev. I watched him get his hand raised, said to myself “that’s about right” and went to bed. Woke up to OUTRAGE online. My lord! It was like I watched a completely different version of the fight. I thought the fight was close. Is 116-112 a bit wide? Sure… But it’s ONE ROUND DIFFERENT FROM 115-113, which most people were fine with. If it was 118-110 I would be asking for the judge to be tested for drugs, but 116-112 I was “meh” about. It’s as if people decide to score a fight posthumously going off “how it felt” rather than round by round. I don’t even fault some people for thinking Bivol won. But through my eyes, Beterbiev enforced more of his fight and kept Bivol on the back foot with his ear muffs on far too often for me to be convinced Bivol was controlling the fight.
Bivol had his moments, but overall it wasn’t enough for me. This was a clear Bull vs Matador matchup and for Bivol to win I would have liked to have seen more combinations, step arounds and spin the Bull that Artur is.
In case anyone wants to see how good it can look, revisit Algieri vs Provodnikov for the recipe to beat a hard punching pressure fighter. More recently Valenzuela vs Cruz is a good example. Everyone online would have you imagining this was how good Bivol was, but he wasn’t. I would also like your opinion on hard shots that land on the gloves. I keep reading comments about how the punch stats were similar and shots on the gloves don’t count. Well, if one guy is smashing your forearms into your face, guess what you are NOT doing? You are not throwing punches! Even if landed punches are similar, we all saw Beterbiev touch Bivol what? 50-75-100 more times because of that fact? This whole Bivol scoring controversy is a nothing burger to me. I would rather say I enjoyed a close fight and hope we get another compelling re-match instead of beating it to death for the next few months. Cheers,
Brent from Canada
Bread’s Response: Very good comment. I agree with some and disagree with other parts. I agree about the controversy. I saw a very evenly contested fight myself. But I was watching with a few people. The people who thought Bivol won referred back to the commentary. Besides bad judging, commentary is the reason why there is so much controversy in our sport. But here is the thing. I said what you said during the fight. I noticed that the replays all favored Bivol also. An algorithm was created for Bivol’s success. There was a narrative that Bivol was pitching a masterpiece. I saw Bivol fighting a great fight. But I didn’t see a one-sided masterpiece.
I saw an even fight where Bivol stood up to a monster with a 100% ko ratio. But Beterbiev’s ability to answer Bivol’s attacks, use his jab, apply his defense and impose himself were overlooked in my opinion. Had the announcers been more fair towards Beterbiev, I don’t believe we would have this controversy. And for the record I don’t remember who the commentators were. I was watching from a stream and there were a lot of people where I was. But whoever they were, they were pro Bivol. That’s for sure.
Where I disagree with you, is suggesting because Beterbiev kept Bivol on the back foot, that he deserves more credit. I couldn’t care less who comes forward and who goes backwards and I don’t even like those terms back foot and front foot. The rule is who’s more effective with their aggressiveness. If Beterbiev is going forward and Bivol was lighting him up, it wouldn’t matter, Bivol would be winning.
I have seen fights like Buddy McGirt vs Simon Brown where Brown came forward all night but ran into shots all night and was clearly and cleanly outboxed. If there is a person who saw that fight and thinks that Brown won because he came forward, they need to have their eyes removed. We can’t score a fight on what we like. We have to score a fight on the rules that are set in place. Clean punching, effective aggressiveness, ring generalship and defense. And we have to remember it’s not a thirty six minute event. It’s twelve individual rounds.
I thought Bivol fought a better fight overall. But I don’t know if he won seven clean rounds. I thought Beterbiev showed a little more determination at the end. But winning the last three rounds, counts the same as winning the first three. We have to be careful with adding false caveats to scoring a fight.
I also don’t think it’s fair to Bivol to use examples of what Algieri and Valenzuela did in their fights vs Provodnikov and Cruz. No disrespect to them, but Bivol is a much better and more accomplished fighter. And Beterbiev is a much better and more accomplished opponent. Context is important. There are things that Ruslan Provodnikov and Issac Cruz allow you to do, that Arthur Beterbiev does not. You make a good point about punches touching the gloves. That’s a tough call so let me add some context.
If a fighter is blocking punches with his gloves and he’s not able to return fire because his gloves are so pre-occupied blocking punches, I’m going to give his opponent credit for controlling the action. That’s RING GENERALSHIP. A fight that illustrates that the most to me is Pacquiao vs Clottey. Clottey didn’t get destroyed in terms of punishment taken. But he could barely punch back because Manny was so busy. No way you can give Clottey more than one round in that fight. So in a case like that I would give Pacquiao credit for winning the rounds. In this case, it’s more difficult because Bivol and Beterbiev landed almost the same amount of punches and Bivol did find room to land his shots.
Hey Bread, Hope you’re doing well. You have long favored Benavidez against Bivol. After last week, I don’t think Benavidez holds a candle to either guy. Both Beterbiev and Bivol are 100 per cent legendary fighters. Also I think Bivol won the fight. Sergio Mora had summarized it well, he said “more and more judges are getting influenced by ineffective aggression.” Beterbiev threw 1000 plus punches and landed just 200 something and was also quite behind on impactful punches. Even if judges only have their eyes to rely on, one can easily see that Bivol was more cleaner and Beterbiev was just busier and that doesn’t translate to winning the round unless you don’t score defense at all, which has to be scored as per the rules. This just makes one appreciate defensive fighters more as their style is not properly understood, it happened to Floyd against Oscar and Canelo. This fight highlighted that boxing scoring should not discourage a 10-10 round score because scoring swing rounds is beyond the aptitude of the current judges.
Bread’s Response: I personally score defense. But it’s not paramount to clean punching. Both displayed good defense. But it’s no doubt that Bivol was the more efficient fighter. He threw less and almost landed the same amount of shots. But before you get upset. There is nowhere in the handbook that states the fighter who lands the higher percentage of shots should win. It’s the fighter who lands the cleaner shots, the fighter who is the most effective aggressor, the fighter who controls the action the most and the fighter who displays the best defense.
Now, what I can say is Bivol displayed great defense because Beterbiev landed a small percentage of his punches. That I will give you. But when I assess these things. I don’t get into what I specifically like. I just simply score the fight on the things that the judges are supposed to score the fight on. That’s it. My subjective preference doesn’t go into it.
Stephen: Good morning, I am true to my word! You picked Beterbiev and you were correct, from the interview that you gave Millcity Boxing you were surprised and I quote, “Bivol’s toughness surprised me. I’ve watched him stand up to three huge punchers and not break mentally,” said Edwards.
Bivol is showing composure. He’s keeping his hands up. I’m not saying he’s impervious to pain and can’t be hurt, but he’s a finished fighter. This was one of the reasons why I picked Bivol and IMO he had the fight (shall we say could have won) but almost conceded the final rounds he did not press Beterbiev enough thus the decision and seems rightly was given to Beterbiev. I thought the fight was even after 10 but 115-113 seemed to be the correct score. While IMO 114-114 was certainly plausible given how judges are often all over the place, 116-112 seemed to be EXTREMELY generous to say the least. While a rematch would certainly be another exciting fight, I can see the wheels spinning in the head of Canelo Alvarez. Do I think he would have the stones to challenge Artur Beterbiev? No, not at all. However, if his intention was to ever fight Bivol again, now would be the time to do so at 168. Alvarez has the strategic habit of looking for a fighter who begins his decline; GGG was the quintessential example. I am not saying Bivol is on the decline as the man who beat him was a beast, just that Alvarez may see something which will give him the courage to fight Bivol again. Crawford would be wise to either retire or look for another fighter to match up against. IMO, that ship has not only sailed but is past the horizon. Never going to happen as I believe that Turki Alalshikh has moved off of this as well. I certainly could be wrong as I was on this fight, it happens. It happens. JJH
Bread’s Response: I was very surprised at Bivol’s toughness and composure under pressure. He’s a special guy. Great fighter. I also agree that Canelo or Benavidez will fight Beterbiev next year.
I want to know how you scored the Beterbiev-Bivol fight. Directly after the fight, I thought Bivol had proved himself as the best fighter on the planet. I thought the even scorecard was incredibly kind to Beterbiev. When I heard the 116-112 score, I was certain Bivol had won. Then Beterbiev’s name was announced and I’m still shocked. It’s not a terrible decision but I just don’t see how Beterbiev was given the majority of the rounds. Please help me see it or help me justify my belief that Bivol won. Thank you!
Bread’s Response: I couldn’t tell who won while watching it. My initial impression was a DRAW. I haven’t seen it again.
Hey Bread, Hope you’re well. Last week, interestingly you mentioned Conwell and Tszyu as Ennis future rivals. Not high on Ortiz anymore? What’s up with Garcia? The one you beat. Are you sold on Bivol’s toughness and heart? I feel we all felt he wasn’t as resilient. I’m impressed. I thought he edged it by one round but a draw would have been fine too. I think Beterbiev can do better in the rematch. Bivol fought great. Do you see a more violent fight than Benavidez vs Beterbiev? I can’t imagine anything more destructive.
Cheers
Diego
Bread’s Response: I think Vergil Ortiz is an excellent fighter but the tough time he had with Bochachuk is concerning to me. Ortiz is much more talented than Bochachuk and he had life in death in that fight. So much so that I don’t know if he left a piece of himself in the ring that night.
So while I’m still high on Ortiz, if you’re talking about future fights. I don’t expect Ortiz to have career longevity because fighters who usually have longevity, have mastered the art of not just winning, but winning with ease. The Bochachuk fight was too hard of a fight in my opinion. But I will leave room for me to be wrong and to possibly be underestimating Bochachuk. Right now I will say Conwell and Tszyu will be around to fight Ennis. I feel like Conwell and Ortiz are in the same stable and I can see Conwell beating him if they fought next.
Beterbiev vs Benavidez would be the fight of the century.
Assalaam alaykum Mr Edwards,
I hope you and yours are well and healthy and I send peace and blessings to you all. I’m writing in anticipation of the rematch between Artur Beterbiev and Dmitry Bivol and in awe and gratitude for the fight. That was an exceptional performance and a justifiable result. The fight was likely even after six rounds and even after 10 rounds. But Artur Beterbiev controlled the championship rounds and it would be hard to score either of them for Bivol. A seven rounds to five score for either fighter is justifiable, but could only be scored for Bivol on defense. I’ve heard a lot of people call the result a robbery and I frankly don’t understand it at all. I am, however, very excited about a rematch. Even the 116-112 scorecard for Beterbiev just gives him the benefit of the close rounds, arguable on the strength of his pressure and his obvious control of the fight. A 115-113 result for Bivol would also be justifiable but would give Bivol the benefit of the doubt in all the close rounds. Anyone, like Eddie Hearn, who believes that’s a fair result, shouldn’t complain about a judge who scored it fairly but favored Beterbiev’s effective aggression, ring generalship, and cleaner punches over Bivol’s defense. If you look at Pawel Kardyni’s scorecard, it’s fair. There are not any abhorrent rounds or any obvious favoritism. He simply preferred what he saw from Beterbiev and scored closer rounds for the more dominant, punishing fighter. When I watched the fight on an international feed with much less commentary, I was struck by the difference in power. Beterbiev’s punches were, in every round, harder, sharper, and more effective. And the rounds Beterbiev won, he won much more clearly and cleanly. Overall, I’m happy with the result and happy that everyone involved seems to want a rematch. I don’t think that there’s much Bivol can change or do better, he fought a perfect fight and it just wasn’t enough. Beterbiev did not fight his best (to my eye), but he could age more before a rematch, or suffer another injury. What is your impression of the result and the scorecards? What was your impression of the fight? For my money, it was far and away the highest quality fight of the year thus far. Thank you for everything you do for the sport.
Ma salaam, John
Bread’s Response: It was an excellent fight. I really enjoyed it. I didn’t think it was a great fight. But it was well fought in my opinion. Both displayed why they were in that position in the first place. Fighters who are that sound fundamentally with that type of pedigree won’t usually produce FOY level fights. But they will produce fights that up and coming fighters can look at and learn from and fights that hardcore fans can enjoy.
Greetings Bread! Hoping all is well with you and yours my man. It’s been a bit since I’ve written in but the Breadbag remains a Saturday morning highlight! Unsurprisingly, you were the only voice I heard even talking about Beterbiev by decision lol. Kudos to you! I knew you’d be inundated with letters immediately after Plant’s victory a few weeks ago so thought I’d hold off before asking. Firstly, congratulations on a terrific performance! Which brings me to my question. It’s pretty universally believed that Canelo got exponentially better after being defeated (schooled) by Floyd, especially in his defense and overall craftiness. Now, Caleb did not get schooled by any means in the Benavidez fight, but lost a close competitive decision to a generational talent and one of the best inside fighters in the game. How much do you think that experience with such an effective inside fighter contributed to Plant, never known for that particular wrinkle in his game, completely taking over his most recent fight and brutalizing his opponent with such effective ferocity on the inside? I know you guys worked on that in sparring too, which is why I ask if the Benavidez fight played a role or not but it sure seemed like it might’ve to me. In either case, he did some exceptional inside work and it was a spectacular performance, and evidence that Plant is the type of fighter who learns in defeat and comes back better. You guys are one hell of a team and I can very easily see Plant becoming the number 1 guy at ‘68, especially with Benavidez moving to 175. Incidentally, if Canelo does ever fight David, I think he’ll wait until he’s fully adjusted to 175, then fight him at 168 with a rehydration clause. If that happens, I hope the Mexican Monster tells him to pound sand and protect his own legacy and reputation. I hate those rehydration clauses! Porter is the only major fighter I’ve seen not be obviously affected by a rehydration clause in his victory over Broner (144 I think it was). It’s usually a guaranteed L for the guy who’s not able to rehydrate. Fans and boxing media need to call this out more loudly so A side fighters are embarrassed to request them. Just my two cents, but do you agree? Thanks for all you do Breadman and Keep Punching!
Sean in Atlantic City
Bread’s Response: We worked on Caleb’s inside game since I started training him in the summer of 2022. But you can’t rush development. It happens when the fighter gets it. Against Dirrell, Caleb didn’t need the inside game so much. He was able to outbox Dirrell from the outside and there was no reason to go inside when he was winning from the outside. But obviously Caleb needed it against Benavidez. The fight went how it went, and we worked on it afterwards. And it finally showed in a real fight. I don’t fret over that type of stuff. Because I understand development. I taught Julian Williams the move where he rips gloves down in 2010. He didn’t use it in a fight until years later. You can’t rush development. You can only cultivate it. If a fighter is on the level, he will eventually get it.
Well Breadman, I don’t know what to make of that. Beterbiev’s corner told him he needed a knockout in round 10 and had the demeanour of a team who lost, and Bivol’s corner had the demeanour of the team that won. Eddie Hearn and Frank Warren both had it for Bivol 116-112, and Frank had actually picked Beterbiev beforehand. I’m seeing a lot more people immediately after saying Bivol won, and a lot of them have it as wide as Eddie and Frank. It seemed a close fight to me. I would have to watch it again and score it round by round but it looked draw-ish or 115-113 either way. I felt like neither guy really went for it except for maybe Beterbiev in the last two rounds, which may have won him the fight. However, that judge who had it 116-112 for Beterbiev was way off. Truthfully, I decided not to bet on the fight when I saw the way the ring was set up. I got a weird feeling my spidey-sense started tingling. It looked small and unusual with like a good 2 or 3 foot of space outside the ropes as though they had been set further in than normal? I don’t think I’ve seen a ring like that before. Maybe it was just a botch job given the way the two guys went over the ropes earlier in the night. Not many had Beterbiev by decision so I will say congrats on your pick, even if I’m not sure right now if the right guy got the nod. I think an immediate rematch is fair and warranted – and before Beterbiev gets any older. Did you score the fight, what did you make of the ring (if anything), and did it play out like you expected? The way Bivol started the fight feinting and speeding Beterbiev is how I thought the whole fight would go, but I guess he couldn’t maintain it. Much, much respect
Bread’s Response: I didn’t notice anything wrong the ring. What happened? Was it not 20 x 20?I thought it was an even fight. 115-113 either way. Or 114-114. No more or less for either guy.
I don’t mind Beterbiev’s corner edging him on with urgency. And I don’t look at that as an indicator of who won or lost. Maybe their expectations were different from Bivol’s corner. You have to remember they had never been the distance before. So maybe they wanted to ensure victory.
Thanks. Beterbiev by decision paid +750!!!
Hello Mr. Edwards,
First, congratulations on your fighters’ recent successes. And, I hope you are having wins everywhere in life!cNow, what are your perspectives on a boxer bringing family to watch his bouts, especially for a “big” fight? Personally, when I had brought immediate family to watch me play sports, the fact they were in the audience was always in the corner of my mind and adversely affected the sharp focus and learned habits. It was an intrusion into my game psyche. That said, when I watch boxing, the television cameras are, more and more, pointing out in the stands the wife, kids, parents of a fighter. Is this becoming a thing? And they always seem to be near the corner and loud. Would you let a fighter choose this or have you set strong suggestions or hard rules against this sort of thing? I am curious what conclusions you have come to after all your experience as a boxing trainer and father of a gifted athlete. Cheers, Nicholas Abramczyk Grafton, ON, Canada
Bread’s Response: This is a great question. I believe the very best athletes are at their very best when everyone is looking. But there is so much pressure and expectations on successful athletes that I do see sometimes they over press when family and friends show up. Personally, I’ve seen it affect the fighter in a negative way and a positive way.
I have seen fighters show out and have the best night of their lives in front of friends and family. And also have absolutely the worst night of their lives.
It’s not up to me to say if family and friends should attend fights. But it does affect me if they become a distraction. Honestly, there is always a level of distraction from family and friends because they are not just there to support the fighter. They are also there for their own personal experience. Rooms, local attractions, tickets etc. Are all things they want and expect. And someone has to accommodate them.
What I always suggest to fighters is have someone handle those things. Don’t take the calls and requests themselves because it will distract them. It will cause anxiety. Here is the thing about boxing. It’s hard to put down rules on a grown man who pays you. But I do let them know my feelings and then they can do whatever they want. So here are my personal rules.
Rule#1 Do not let your woman sleep in your room the night before the fight. Obviously no sex. But no distractions. You’re not on vacation. You’re getting ready for a fight. So if she’s in your room, she’s going to talk on the phone, turn the TV on, get up to go to the bathroom. In a high anxiety event, this can be taxing. So I tell fighters to not be cheap. Get your woman their own room, then room together after the fight if you want. If they choose to have their women in their room overnight, it’s on them. And I don’t have to say anything because they know where I stand already.
Rule #2. Hire someone to take the family request. Simple but not easy. Trust me I have seen fighters handle that stuff.
Rule #3 and the most important one. Don’t let your family and friends make it about them. Because it’s about us. Some fighters I don’t have to say that to. Some I do. But after I say it, when it happens it’s on them and not me again
What are your thoughts on Ben Whittaker? I don’t know what to make of the incident and him. On one hand he seems incredibly talented. On the other hand he seems more bark and less bite. Where do you rate him and his potential?
Bread’s Response: I think Whittaker is talented but talent is not enough. You need to have the right stuff under the hood of the car. I don’t want to call him a quitter because I haven’t seen anything on the diagnosis of his injury. But his behavior was concerning. I felt his opponent was coming on and had just hurt him with a left hook to the body. The momentum was not in Whittaker’s favor at the time the fight was stopped. I would have liked to see if Whittaker could overcome that and take over in the second half of the fight. But it didn’t work out that way.
Many years ago Julian Williams fought Hugo Centeno in a prospect 50/50 fight. Julian was dominating the fight. He was up 3 rounds to 0. In the 4th round there was a headbutt. Nothing serious. Centeno told the referee he couldn’t see. Williams was cut also and the referee conveniently took the losing fighter to see the doctor. I still don’t know why he picked Centeno to go see the doctor. Both fighters had small cuts. The fight was stopped. It’s on YouTube.
Centeno and his team celebrated afterwards in the MGM. I thought to myself, in that moment, Centeno should have tried to overcome his poor start and he may have kept his 0 but he cheated his character. His career and character would have been better served. But he didn’t and he never reached the heights he thought his career would ascend to.
If Whittaker doesn’t pan out, his critics will look back at that exact moment he fell out of the ring. Fighters who have truculent flamboyant personalities usually don’t respond well to losses. Ali is one of one. And Whittaker’s countryman Chris Eubank Sr. was an absolute gun. But many like them fall by the wayside when they lose or have a bad performance.
Naseem Hamed is an absolutely great fighter. But after he lost to Barrera, he fought maybe once and was done. Hector Camacho was never the same after he was hurt by Edwin Rosario. Even Josh Kelly recently lost and it’s obvious he just doesn’t have his mojo.
This won’t be easy for Whittaker. The opponents will fight him harder. And the media will criticize him harder. He’s going to have to be a man’s man and fight through this. He’s going to have to have something under hood that he hasn’t had to show. I’m not writing him off. But I am curious now to see what he has. A step in the right direction would be to heal up and give his opponent an immediate rematch. We shall see how that works out.
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