Daily Bread Mailbag: Does Fury Need The Win More Than Usyk? Special Lomachenko, Foreman’s Power & The Best Fighters To Train

The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards giving his thoughts on various topics such tonight’s undisputed heavyweight fight between Tyson Fury and Oleksandr Usyk, the fighters he wished he could have trained, feedback on Vasiliy Lomachenko’s win over George Kambosos and much more.

Ssup Bread,

Hope you are having a good day. Was watching a lot of George Foreman bouts this weekend and it just got me thinking, is Earnie Shavers really the hardest puncher or did he just throw certain types of punches harder than Big George? I mean, Foreman’s uppercut was a nightmare and I don’t think that any fighter has ever thrown an uppercut harder than Foreman. I read an interview in which Foreman said that due to a certain injury he suffered earlier in his life, he could not lift his arm higher than a certain level and hence he practised to throw a lot of punches that would typically not require him to raise his hand beyond a certain height. Maybe this is why he was such a nightmare for swarmers. 

They were normally shorter than him and used to fight in a crouched position. Needless to say, he knocked them out with his uppercut. Of course, if his punch needed to move over his shoulder level, he was incapacitated by his injury and hence the power was lesser than the lower punches he threw. It just got me thinking, maybe bald Foreman could have been that guy to knock out Tua or Ibeabuchi if that fight had ever materialized. 

How do you think those bouts would have gone?

Speaking of hardest punches, who do you think has had the P4P hardest a) Hook b) Uppercut c) Jab d) Straight right / Cross?

Regards,

Saurabh Kumar

Bread’s Response: I think Foreman was the strongest, most powerful and hardest puncher ever. Obviously no opinion is absolute and there will be opponents who say others hit harder. But overall what my eyes tell me is Foreman is the GUY. But according to a fighter’s weakness and how they absorbed punches, opinions will vary. 

I think Shavers had a brutal overhand right. So maybe he threw that specific punch harder than Foreman did. But punch for punch, I think Foreman was a bigger puncher.

I don’t think Bald Foreman would ko Tua or Ibeabuchi because he didn’t pull the trigger fast enough. Scoring kos is just not about power. It’s about pulling the trigger so the opponent can’t brace for the shot. Bald Foreman was strong but slower, it’s why he went the distance 3 straight times at the end of his career. Young Foreman is not going the distance 3 straight times.

P4P hardest hook. Hmmm….This is really tough. I may go with Joe Louis, Roy Jones or Sugar Ray Robinson. Louis’s hook is ridiculous but history talks about his right hand. His hook was just as good and you never saw it coming. But the hook Robinson hit Gene Fulmer with may be the hardest punch I’ve seen a MW throw.

P4P hardest uppercut. George Foreman or maybe Mike Tyson, Ricardo Lopez or Naseem Hamed.

P4P hardest jab. Hmm…I would say tie between George Foreman and Sonny Liston.

P4P hardest straight/cross. Many fighters come to mind. Louis, Wilder, Arguello, Hearns, Beterbiev even Foreman. You asked hardest not the best. So I will say Julian Jackson…. I’m sure Tommy Hearns fans will be upset but Jackson could really punch with the right hand.

Hello

Jose Corpas from NY – I do not know how you do it – those questions and “facts” they were throwing at you – you handled it very well even the fanboy part was called for and ok you even apologized –crazy that they no longer know what a “protected” fighter is or a “built up” fighter —  all fighters should be built up but once in a while you should match them up in at least 60-40 matchups to push them —  unless you are protecting the zero you should be a ringside analyst. Paulie was great but he’s too controversial. I haven’t spoken to him in about a year but I once told him to chill, keep it to boxing.  He’s doing ok but it was boxing’s loss 

CHAMPION AUTO SCHOOL 

Bread’s Response: Thanks bro. I try to be fair and objective without being insulting to anyone. I hope to get an analyst job one day. That’s the plan.

Peace and Blessings sir,

Occasionally I see you refer to fighters being “run hot” or “run cold”. I have an idea as to what this means but I’m hoping you can explain it in detail. What are a few examples of a fighter running his opponent hot or cold? Thank you for your time. 

Jack from Detroit 

Bread’s Response: Running hot is moving or expending more energy than you want to and it fatigues you to a point where you’re overly exhausted by the late rounds.

Cooling a fighter off, is one who is strong and snappy and starts out on fire. And then the opponent calms down their fire without matching the output, but by being calm and being accurate. 

An example of running a guy hot, is what Julio Cesar Chavez did to Edwin Rosario or what Roberto Duran did to Esteban DeJesus in their 2nd and 3rd fights.

An example of cooling a fighter off is what Floyd Mayweather did to Zab Judah and what Mike McCallum did to Julian Jackson. 

Great Question!!

Bread,

Blessings to you and yours first and foremost. Random question, who has the best résumé Julio Cesar Chavez, Floyd Mayweather Junior, or Canelo Alvarez? If you could please break it down briefly or at least give your reasoning why, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

Bread’s Response: Fans confuse BIG fights with quality fights. They also confuse how many ex world champions a fighter has fought with beating current Ring RATED fighters. I don’t know the exact numbers but if my memory serves me correct, then it’s about even across the board but RING rated fighters are harder to calculate because you have to know if they were RING rated at the exact time of the fight. 

All 3 have beaten close to 20 or more Ring Rated fighters if I recall correctly. All have about 20 or more wins over ex world champions. 

I think Floyd has more HOF he’s fought in Cotto, Manny, Oscar, Canelo, Shane, Marquez and Hatton. 

Chavez fought Camacho, Whitaker, Oscar, Rosario and Tszyu.

Canelo has Cotto, Shane, GGG, Floyd and possibly Kovalev and Bivol as HOFs. 

I think it’s close but Floyd has the edge in BIG names and BIG fights. Chavez has the edge in hardcore tough fights vs fighters like Roger Mayweather, Juan Laporte and tough Rocky Lockridge who are super tough fights but you have to be from that era to realize it. For the record Chavez’s toughest opponents were younger and closer to their primes than both Floyd and Canelo.

It’s really, really close. I give Floyd and Chavez a slight edge over Canelo. And It’s a toss up between them two.

Hey Bread,

We often stick to our narrative. Sure, Loma left a piece of himself in the Linares fight. But how much did he really slip? The Teo fight was hyper competitive and he was coming strong in the second part of the fight. It’s highly documented that he suffered a bad injury. And Teo was big, strong, and switched on. After that he stopped Nakatani, toyed with Commey and UD and game Ortiz – young and strong as well. He then completely outperformed all expectations in the Haney fight. I know you predicted a Devin win so you didn’t complain much about the decision but as you know most observers had it for Loma. Anyways, Haney had the fight of his life and was impressive. Now we are all waiting for Loma to ‘get old’. And I feel people sleep on him. But if we look closely, is he really slipping? Besides Stevenson, who would you favor against him at 135? Loma is 36, coming up in his X weight division, and is at best the number one 135 pounders, at worst the third after generational talents in Stevenson and Tank. How impressive is that?

Canelo used his experience against an aggressive fighter in Munguia who showed improvements, excellent head movements and a lot of poise but a big intermediary step between Ryder and Canelo could have helped. My eyes tell me Canelo struggled at times more than what he showed. He’s a master at looking relaxed in there. But his head was popping back and he got hit clean more than usual. Munguia would feast over Berlanga. Canelo should stay away from Morrell, Benavidez, Bivol and Beterviev and prob Crawford. 

By the way, fantasy match up but if you like Crawford over Canelo, do you like Ennis too? 

I hope Ennis won’t hurt Crowley too much. Nice tough dude but so outclassed. Seems like such a mismatch even if it’s a mandatory. 

Speaks volume about Ennis’ talent. Spence, Tszyu, Crawford, Adames are fights that would be more interesting. Would love to see what a peak Josh Taylor would do with Ennis. Would he hang? 

Cheers

Diego

Bread’s Response: Loma is special. I underestimated him vs Devin Haney and I definitely did vs Kambosos. I couldn’t tell who won Loma’s fight vs Haney. I didn’t complain about the decision because my initial impression was it was a drawish type of fight with Loma having the BIGGER moments. 

I didn’t like how Loma looked post Linares. He just looked 10% less than himself at a weight where he was teetering with the physicality disadvantages. But you’re correct he’s looked really good in his last 2 fights. It doesn’t mean he hasn’t slipped but he’s obviously adjusted. I think Tank and Stevenson would both be the favorite to beat Loma right now. It’s not just fighting them. It’s the totality of taking so many tough fights. If you listen to Loma speak, he’s near the end….

Personally I appreciate him. He’s a modern great. He’s one of the 10 best fighters ever at 130. And he’s a future HOF. If he walked away now, he could with his chin up and be proud of what he did. 

I agree about Canelo struggling more than it appeared. Munguia gave him a real tussle. Canelo is just super durable, so he doesn’t wobble around when hit. He’s very composed so it always appears he’s in control. But Munguia was there all night making him work. I catch myself when I say a fighter should stay away from another fighter. But I will say I would favor all 5 to beat Canelo at this current moment.

I won’t even consider Ennis vs Canelo at the moment. Ennis seems to be special but we can’t match him with Canelo right now because of the direction of their careers. 

However, Ennis will probably be a 20 to 1 favorite over Crowley. That’s enormous considering Crowley is an undefeated mandatory. I think Ennis wins every second of every round before the fight gets stopped. Josh Taylor was a terrific fighter at his peak. But he’s a little too slow and small for Ennis. Taylor had superior physicality at 140. But he wouldn’t have that at 147. Ennis is more talented, he’s bigger, faster, more powerful, a better boxer and a better puncher. For as good as Taylor was, he wouldn’t beat Ennis. Taylor’s heart would carry him for a few rounds but it’s just a tough fight for him. Ennis is as talented as Teofimo Lopez, but he’s more physical, bigger and has a better jab. Did I mention he switches. Ennis is the absolute worst style match up that Taylor could have.

How are you sir?  

Appreciate the mailbag. Wanted to ask a few things. If a PED is said to have been such a trace amount and it had no positive effects, do you think it should have the same consequences?  I’m not saying it should be excused or the punishment should be waved. I’m more curious about the actual performance in the ring. Testing positive puts an asterisk on the winner’s performance. If there were no effects, should the performance be ignored? As far as Terence Crawford, I think he is a fan’s nightmare for their favorite fighter. I like Canelo but I must RESPECT the talents and boxing IQ of Crawford. He could beat Canelo. Reminds me of Cotto vs Mayweather. I loved Cottos return to the top after the Margarito fight, and I really wanted Cotto to win. I seen the fight and I thought Cotto won. After rewatching it, I realized my initial reaction was BIASED. Mayweather’s hooks kept getting past Cotto’s guard.  Mayweather realized this punch was working and kept using it. Cotto did not adjust. I hate to admit, Mayweather won and was the better fighter and had the better performance. I see a similar scenario unfolding with Canelo and Crawford (As far as a fans reaction).

A talented fighter may not attract a large fan base, for whatever reason. I can respect a fighter may want to simply focus on his craft, be the best fighter he can be and let someone else promote him. Is that a wise approach or should fighters take a more active role in promoting themselves?  

I LOVE Dereck Chisora and I don’t even think he cares about fighting for belts anymore (I don’t know him personally so that’s just my opinion). Is that path a feasible path for fighters? Follow the money and forget about the accolades? 

Finally, boxing is a warriors’ sport. Fans play a big part since without a strong fan base, I don’t know the chances for consistent high pay days. When a fighter gets older, there is a push for the fighter to continue to fight the best. I understand that but it appears that fans are asking their “favorite fighter” to pass the baton eventually. Is there really something wrong with a fighter ageing and retiring gracefully? Let the newcomers fight the newcomers. Does Boots need to fight Crawford? Does Canelo need to fight Benavidez? My point is, I think we are not appreciating fighters in their Era.  

Thank you for your time sir.  

I appreciate you.  

Best, Dan

Bread’s Response: Here is HOW I feel about PEDS. There is a list of banned or prohibited substances that are publicly listed. There are also allowable amounts of certain substances. If a fighter test positive for ANY of these substances and his levels are above the ALLOWED amount, then that’s just what it is. A positive TEST RESULT.

I don’t want to get into if it really had an effect on him or not. I don’t want to get into did he knowingly took anything or not. A good attorney somewhere is laughing at everyone who falls for this. This is classic MISDIRECTION. And the boxing world has FELL for it. 

The GOAL POSTS are constantly being moved. And the BURDEN of PROOF is higher in boxing than it is in a court of LAW. We are getting to the point where if a boxer can afford a good attorney, a positive test won’t mean anything anymore because now the goal posts are moved to a point where they have to prove CULPABILITY. Proving culpability is extremely difficult. Most good attorneys can get past that and they know it….. Positive is Positive. And Negative is Negative. There is no in between and I don’t do the mental gymnastics that come along with the OTHER stuff.

There are those who think Crawford is too small for Canelo. I won’t argue because none of us KNOW for sure. It’s just an educated guess. But my instincts tell me Crawford will beat him. And history says if the skills are close and the smaller fighter has superior IQ, durability and his physical traits are not overwhelmed then he can rise up in weight and overcome a bigger great fighter.

I can give examples both ways. Jose Napoles was special but he was about 5 inches shorter, had way less reach and wasn’t durable enough to beat Carlos Monzon. 

But Roberto Duran was close to Hagler in height. He had comparable reflexes, so he just wasn’t taking a beating without getting his pound of flesh. So he was able to compete. 

Meldrick Taylor was physically overwhelmed by Terry Norris. Norris was bigger, more physical, rangier and quick enough to challenge Taylor’s speed which was his best attribute.

In the case of Canelo vs Crawford. I think they are about dead even in height. I know Crawford’s arms are way longer. I think their IQs are on the same tier. Crawford has excellent legs and conditioning. Obviously he can get knocked out, but I think he punches hard enough for Canelo not to just walk up on him recklessly. I know professional fighters who call me crazy. They tell me I’m overrating Crawford. I may be, but I like Crawford in the fight. I don’t let people tell me I’m wrong, they have to prove to me that I’m wrong.

I disagree with you about passing the torch. That only applies if the older fighter loses. What if he wins? Like when Ali beat a young Foreman. Or when Floyd beat a young Canelo. Real fighters believe in themselves and not even identical twins are the same age. Sometimes fighters will be younger, sometimes older. And great older fighters don’t always pass the torch when they take on young guns. It’s a fight by fight basis for me.

Before the first fight between Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis, it was very obvious which fighter’s legacy needed the win more. In that fight, Holyfield was already considered an all time great. Lewis still hadn’t earned the respect of the entire boxing public. When it comes to Tyson Fury against Oleksandr Usyk, I’m not nearly as sure which fighter needs the win more. While both are very accomplished, this fight seems to be a make or break situation for both Fury and Usyk’s legacy.If Fury loses, it actually becomes pretty easy to question if he was ever really the best heavyweight in his era. If Usyk loses, it becomes easy to dismiss the names on his resume as the former champions of a bad division and one overrated heavyweight. So I ask this: which boxer’s legacy needs the victory more, Fury’s or Usyk’s? Thank you!

Bread’s Response: I think Tyson Fury needs this fight more. Fury’s biggest wins have been against Deontay Wilder. I think Wilder is a very good fighter, BUT the media and the critics don’t think highly of him. He has 10 title defenses. No heavyweight in history with 10 title defenses is NOT in the HOF. But I think if Wilder retired today, most wouldn’t vote him in. So Wilder’s stock has been devalued. Fury hasn’t fought Joshua yet. So because of Wilder’s devaluation. Fury’s lackluster title reigns and his poor showing vs Francis Ngannou, I think Fury needs this fight more.

Breadman,

Commendable performance by Loma. If I’m being honest I think there were a few factors that made the performance look better.

1. Loma appeared healthy 
2. Kambosos has lost a step or two
3. Loma stopped Kambosos which Teo or Haney couldn’t do. With that being said, I would still put him as an underdog versus Tank & Shakur. Ideally, I would like Loma to face the winner of the vacant WBO bout, then unify with the winner of Tank/Martin vs Shakur (if he wins his fight). That superfight could/should happen by no later than this time next year. Father Time is not doing Loma any favors. Boxing politics are subsiding thanks to middle eastern money. If that’s what it takes to make the fights then so be it. Let’s just say one thing, people should not mention Inoue vs Tank. Size matters and if Nery put Inoue down, then I don’t see how Tank wouldn’t be able to do the same. Tank is a master boxer who sets traps. He doesn’t just bulldoze fighters, he’s patient, calculated and when he throws the “brick”.. .it’s with precision.

What are your thoughts on Loma’s performance? How much do you think he has left? If he unifies the 135 lbs vs Tank/Shakur (scenarios listed above) where do you rank him all time at lightweight and all time if he retired after unifying at 135?

All the best,

Richard K. Oregon 

Bread’s Response: Loma did appear healthy. That’s a big thing when you have battled the injuries he has. I don’t think Kambosos lost a step. Kambosos is a solid fighter, who had a great win. He’s nowhere near Loma in terms of talent or skill. It doesn’t matter that he beat someone that beat Loma. Loma is better. 

I thought the fight would be more competitive because Loma went to his home country and Loma is 36. Not because Kambosos is an elite talent. Kambosos is losing fights because he’s fighting better fighters and it’s hard to keep fighting over your head, fight after fight. Only great fighters consistently outkick their coverage. Good fighters do it once and come back down to earth. Kambosos is just pretty good, nowhere near great….

I also think that Kambosos has made a boat load of money. That matters. Kambosos is an overachiever. He’s not great at any one thing. So he literally has to have perfect camps to compete in what is probably a Golden Era of talent at lightweight.

Last but not least Kambosos has a new team. His best career win was under Javiel Centeno. A very good but under the radar trainer. I’m not saying that he would’ve beaten Haney and Loma with Centeno. I’m also not criticizing his new team. But the little things matter in tough fights. And the fact remains on his greatest night, Centeno was his trainer.

Loma stopping Kambosos is a big deal. A very big deal. I am very impressed not that he won but that he scored a body shot stoppage. That’s some big time stuff. I believe Loma can beat Navarrete should he win the WBO title. That would give him 2 of the 4 belts. It would also give Loma leverage to tell Tank and Shakur to fight each other so they can bring 2 belts to the table. 

I don’t like doubting Loma but taking on Navarrete should he win, then Shakur, then Tank is some ATG heavy lifting that no one else in this era has even tried to do, let alone at his age. Whatever Loma decides to do, I hope he makes enough money to last him for the rest of his life.

If Loma unified again at 135lbs he would be a top 50 fighter ever.

Sometimes a smaller fighter can get dropped and move up and not get stopped by a bigger fighter. Just because Inoue was dropped at 122lbs doesn’t mean he for sure gets stopped by a bigger guy. Roberto Duran was dropped 2x by Esteban DeJesus at 135lbs. And he took punches from Ray Leonard at 147 and Hagler and Barkley at 160 and never hit the canvas. 

James Toney has one of the best chins EVER. He was actually dropped at 160 by Reggie Johnson and went all the way up to heavyweight and was never stopped. Be careful with your reasoning on punch resistance. But I agree about Tank vs Inoue. Inoue does not have the frame in my opinion to fight above 126lbs and Tank has similar talent but about 20lbs naturally bigger. But Inoue is special and I also didn’t think Manny Pacquiao could beat Oscar De La Hoya at welterweight and he did. So…..

Hey Bread

It’s been a while since I wrote in but I’m interested in your thoughts on Fury v Usyk. Do you think Usyk can get a fair shout with judges? I hate having to allow for bad judging before having a bet but there seems so much more money around Fury, and huge interest around a Joshua fight that I see Usyk winning the fight and then get screwed over, especially as it’s likely to be close and scrappy in my opinion.do you think Fury’s power is overrated because he stopped wilder and Whyte? I don’t see a stoppage in this fight at all. What do you say? Keep up the great mailbags. 

I’ve been reading them longer than I care to remember, 

Cheers. Alun 

UK

Bread’s Response: I don’t even know who the judges are, but I can see Fury vs Usyk going the distance. So the judges will be a factor. I don’t want to say if Usyk can get a fair shot or not without knowing who the officials are. What I do know is Usyk has one of the best managers in the game in Egis Klimas, so I expect him to be on top of everything.

I don’t think Fury is a power puncher. But he’s 270lbs. Any man as coordinated as him with that type of size can hurt you. But it’s different between being a man who can hurt someone and being a BIG puncher. I think Fury has respectable power but he’s not a life taker. I think the fight goes the distance and if anyone gets stopped I would say it’s Fury not Usyk. Both are undefeated but I think Usyk is more durable.

I think the fight comes down to who can outhustle who. Both have shown the clutch ability to win rounds down the stretch. I expect controversy in a tight fight. Right now I’m leaning towards a draw or Usyk. If Fury stays in an orthodox stance, I expect Usyk’s left hand to the body to be the defining punch of the fight. If Fury stays in a southpaw stance, I expect Usyk’s left hand to the HEAD to be the defining punch of the fight.

Hi Breadman,

I pray God is blessing and continues to bless you and your family and the fans of your mailbag and their families. Boxing has been very entertaining to me lately. I didn’t expect Garcia to beat the breaks off Haney. Didn’t expect Mungia to look so good against Canelo because he usually is bad defensively, but he looked really good and showed why Canelo is ducking Benavidez. I‘m really shocked by how good Loma looked against Kambosos. I thought it would be a close and competitive fight, but Loma looked like he was in his prime. He has had back-to-back good performances against Haney and now Kambosos. I would love to see him versus Shakur. I think he beats Shakur and I hope Arum dangles that carrot to get Shakur to re-sign so that they can make that fight. I think that fight would be entertaining and I hope they can make it happen before the end of the year.

Bread’s Response: I didn’t expect Garcia to beat Haney either. But let’s wait until the B samples come back to comment…

I expected Munguia to fight well in a losing effort and he did. I think Benavidez is a better version of Munguia…

Loma surprised me by winning every round and stopping Kambosos. I expected more of 116-112 type of clear by competitive decision. So you think Loma beats Shakur? Man I don’t know about that one. That would be something if Loma could beat Shakur. I’m not saying he can’t, but he would be the underdog in that fight. 

Hello Bread,

With you being a boxing trainer I’m curious if you could pick a mythical stable of a handful of fighters all time to train who would they be and more importantly why? Most curious about the intangibles you’d be looking for.

Sam from Australia

Bread’s Response: When you say handful I’m assuming you mean around 5ish….

I would love to train Sugar Ray Robinson. He’s simply the best ever. And he fights in the boxer puncher-style I am very comfortable training. I would have loved to train him vs Joey Maxim. Robinson was winning that fight but he was moving too much in the brutal heat. Maxim was losing but he was more efficient in his energy output. I know I’m playing Sunday Morning Coach but you asked me so I’m explaining. 

Passing out from heat exhaustion, it’s something that can be avoided with proper hydration, corner work and gameplan for the heat. It’s something I am very BIG on. Imagine the greatest fighter, winning the light heavyweight title from a HOF light-heavyweight. While already being the best ever at 147 and 160…

I would have also asked Robinson to retire after he won the title for the 5th time vs Carmen Basilio. People don’t realize that for as great as Robinson was the boxing establishment got tired of him by the 1960s. 13 of Robinson’s 19 career losses came AFTER he won the title for the 5th time. He lost 2 Split decisions to Paul Pender. In each decision the referee who scored fights back in those days and was closest to the action gave the decision to Robinson. But the referee was overruled by 2 judges. Robinson also got screwed in a draw vs the great Gene Fullmer in a fight most think he won. Robinson has a real case for winning the MW title 7 times. A fighter that special I would love to train.

I would also love to have trained Sugar Ray Leonard, my favorite fighter. I love ultra fast, athletic boxer punchers. We would’ve boxed Duran in that first fight, win, lose or draw. For as great as Leonard is, some nitpick his legacy by saying he lost to a lightweight even though he got revenge 2x.

Felix Trinidad. I watched about 25 of Tito’s fights. But I noticed late in his welterweight reign he stopped going to the body. Tito was brutal to the body and it would’ve served him well as he moved up. 

Evander Holyfield, when he came in with a gameplan he was hell. He had the right gameplans in the Bowe and Lewis rematches but he didn’t in the 1st fights. Bowe and Lewis both had fits with that double jab counter off the bounce. We would’ve had a gameplan every fight.

Manny Pacquiao. I love his talent and I would like to see if I could’ve come up with a way to beat the best fighter of the generation. Floyd Mayweather.

Send Questions and comments to [email protected]