In his latest mailbag, trainer Stephen Edwards responds to reader questions about Lomachenko opting out of the Gervonta Davis fight, Canelo announcing his September date with Edgar Berlanga, scoring, and criticism of his pound-for-pound list.
Hi Bread, Bit late to send a question, but here it is. What are your top 5 referee stoppages? I just watched Adonis Stevenson vs Tony Bellew highlights, the ref dives in front of and shields an out on his feet Bellew from an incoming Stevenson left cross, the fight ends. Bellew moved up and had a memorable cruiserweight run. Makes you think…
Bread’s Response: Hmm…Excellent question. But a very difficult one. Let’s see. I don’t have a top 5 referee stoppages. I have some good corner stoppages that allowed a fighter to live another day and go on to success. But here is a good referee stoppage that allowed an ATG fighter to move on and be an ATG.
Leonard vs Hearns I. Davey Pearl. Hearns was winning but he was wilting. He was severely hurt in the 13th round. He was knocked down. He was helpless up against the ropes. Leonard was foaming for a finish. Hearns was only 22 at the time and he went on to win titles in 5 more weight divisions. Had that fight been let go longer, who knows how Hearns’ career turns out.
Hey Bread, What is your stance on analytics as a boxing trainer? I was always intrigued how analytics has been used in other sports, “Moneyball” being an example in baseball. Are the old tried and true methods the best ways or should technology have a place in boxing preparation? Would extra data such as using sensors in sparring actually help or be useless. I would love to hear your take on the subject. Keep up the great work on the mailbag and continued success as a trainer. Regards, Brett C.
Bread’s Response: You know what, I like analytics. I have referred to analytics for a few fights. But I don’t want to depend on analytics. After studying a fight, I can tell what a fighter’s tendencies are even if I don’t write them down. But an analytics expert can confirm my eye test. So I think analytics can be valuable, especially in training. By training for a specific landmark. For example if a fighter is working on throwing 60 punches/round because that’s where he has his highest level of success. He can work on that in sparring so it can be natural muscle memory. Then apply it in the fight.
The downside to that would be if a fighter is counting his punches throughout the round. He still has to be an instinctive fighter. So the analytics in my opinion are good for training and creating muscle memory. But you don’t want to over-analyze and be consumed with it, and allow it to be a distraction. But overall I think analytics is good as long as the fighter is not so involved. I think it’s more of a training nuance than something a fighter should be thinking about.
Hi Bread, Hope your week/weekend has been going well. I was having an interesting discussion with a couple of buddies who are more casual fans of the sport. Since boxing is my favorite sport and I follow the sport historically as well, they love to “debate” me on who they think are the best fighters ever or who’s who in the current P4P. I try to not over-power the conversation and talk down on their knowledge because boxing needs more and more fans, opinions and conversations to continue to grow the sport. Since you are a renowned boxing trainer and one of the more astute minds inside and outside the sport of boxing, how do you go about educating people or providing tips to casual or beginner fans of the sport?
Bread’s Response: Honestly bro, I don’t go about educating people as far as boxing. When I hear, “Who would win between Floyd Mayweather and Mike Tyson”, I don’t tell the person that Floyd Mayweather is a welterweight and Mike Tyson is a heavyweight. I remove myself from the conversation and allow them to be the genius that they think they are.
I even hear ignorant things from people in the sport and I remove myself from the conversations. I’ve heard it ALL, literally. And as the years have passed by, I have become more and more humble. I walk away from conversations more and more. What I have realized is that everyone doesn’t understand boxing, even if they are involved in the sport. So what I did was LIMIT my circle. I only talk to MY fighters and 5 other people about boxing. So literally I have about 10 people in the world that I have in depth conversations about boxing with. This way, I don’t get frustrated and lose friendships out of ignorance.
When you know what you know, you can’t lower yourself to people who don’t know. It will drive you insane and it won’t be worth it.
Hey Breadman! Always have respect for your work and excitement to read your insights.I had a question for you. Do you think that there is a certain motto, mindset, outlook, or focus as a boxing trainer that you feel is either unique to you or sets you apart from other trainers? Maybe something that you have felt has been impactful in your work as a trainer or effective for the guys that you train? I’m not so much asking for a trade secret but just something that you’ve harnessed over the years that feels like that “Breadman flavor” that you bring to all the guys you work with? I work as a counsellor and there’s so many mindsets/approaches to working with clients and it makes a huge difference. I’m thinking that the same must be true in trainer to boxer relationships. There’s so many things you could focus on or emphasize and even just different ways of seeing the sport that could impact coaching/training. I was just wondering if there’s any that come to mind for you that feel like it gives your boxers a unique experience with you.Thanks brother! Alex
Bread’s Response: Great question. I believe energy attracts similar energy. So it’s obvious that fighters see something in me that makes them come to me to train them. I can’t speak for them, but I think they know I see things that others don’t. I have the ability to OBSERVE. I will tell them something that I saw them do and they all look at me, like ‘damn how did you see that?’
I also believe they want me with them when the odds are against them. I have a reputation for being a guy you want by your side when everyone is against you. But in all fairness this question would be best for my fighters…not so much me…
Dear Breadman, We apparently have a rematch ordered for Foster vs Conceicao.
I am not happy with it since it follows an old script. What we really need is the result overturned, the fight correctly re-scored with all the consequences, and full investigation to follow, in order to understand why judges scored as they did. Even the judge who scored the fight for Foster was generous to his rival. I cannot believe that legal action cannot be taken against such decisions, and there must be some ambitious lawyers waiting for a high-profile case. I cannot believe, since these travesties result in losing titles (profile/PR), money and often in mental health issues amongst these affected. We really need a front against ridiculous scoring, and lawyers to take care of it. We need to see the mechanisms that are behind this, since it is by far too common even at the highest level. We need a change, not a repetition of the same scenario that maintains unfair status quo. Do you have any idea where to start? Many have already expressed their disgust, but this is hardly enough to call it a start. With kindest regards, Marek
Bread’s Response: I still haven’t scored the fight and watched it in its entirety. But what I do know is boxing is cruel. Just because Foster may have won the first fight, it doesn’t mean he’s guaranteed to perform in the rematch. EACH fight is different and that’s why it’s best to get the DECISION correct in REAL time.
The IDEA I have is simple. Stop hiring these judges who turn in bad scorecards. If the outcome of the fight warranted a ruling for a rematch, then obviously the judges got it wrong. This ruling didn’t happen because of accurate scoring. So each judge that ruled the fight should be held accountable.
The reason there are repercussions is to maintain ORDER. In LAW and in RELIGION, there are repercussions for doing WRONG. In boxing there is a REWARD for doing WRONG. Remember this. CJ Ross was the judge in Manny Pacquiao vs Tim Bradley I. The majority of the people who watched that fight, felt Pacquiao won. The following year she was awarded an assignment in Floyd Mayweather vs Canelo Alvarez. She scored it a DRAW. Most felt Mayweather won comfortably. So the question is how did she get the Mayweather vs Alvarez assignment after her controversial Pacquiao vs Bradley scorecard? That’s the issue with boxing. And here is the thing. Pacquaio has so much starpower, it’s easier for him to overcome a bad scorecard than it is 99% of the fighters ever. So imagine when this happens to fighters who have LESS star power.
TAKE AWAY the opportunities for bad judges to keep doing bad things. Once THEY see what the repercussions are, it will STOP. It sounds simple, so one must wonder why it hasn’t been done.
- After seeing/reading your top 10 P4P list I have to admit something, I’m fairly disturbed by your list. I consider you the most credible and fair active boxing voice, but I see that you are harsh on Canelo Alvarez. And I don’t understand. For example, you had him ranked #9 on your top 10 with David Benavidez ahead of him at #8….. can you explain to us how this makes sense? Canelo is the one who started at 147lbs and went up to brutally KO a legit 175lb champion for a world title. David Benavidez (who is 6 inches taller) went up to 175lb and could not even score a knockdown against a fighter who A: Is not a current champion B: was once retired and C: Was beaten so badly in a fight that he had a minor brain bleed. I hope this question isn’t offensive, I’m just genuinely befuddled by your list.
- Is Tank Davis the most electric fighter you have ever seen at 130-140 lbs? If not, who is? And who does he remind you of most when you watch him fight?
- Why does Jake Paul get a pass (and even praise) for constantly fighting welterweight (170) MMA fighters who he brings up to 200lbs? Do you see him being able to weasel himself into a world title fight one day?
- Thank you and much respect.
ASP from NC
Bread’s Response: If I was asked who ranked higher P4P historically, Canelo would be higher up. But I was asked currently who’s the best. Currently right now, I believe Benavidez would beat Canelo if they fought. I believe that Canelo has slipped slightly and Benavidez is in his prime. You shouldn’t be so puzzled by my list. Canelo could solve this by fighting Benavidez. Something he has chosen not to do. I promise, if he beats Benavidez, I will rank him higher on the list.
I’m not offended. We just disagree. I think P4P lists hold on to established legacies too long and they don’t acknowledge young ascending fighters fast enough. I am relatively sure Benavidez is slightly over Canelo at this point. I could care less about Benavidez not scoring a knockdown vs the Nail, he won! Canelo didn’t stop the Nail at 175. He stopped a shot Sergey Kovalev. You’re comparing apples and oranges to make a point. I know what I see in fighters. I still believe Canelo is great and amongst the best in the world. I just believe at this point he’s closer to the bottom of the top 10, than he is the top of it. There’s no shame in that. He has two fighters on the list he can fight to prove he deserves to be higher. David Benavidez and Terence Crawford. Both want to fight him. One is smaller. One is in his division. Both have PPV star power….
Is Tank Davis the most electric fighter I have seen from 130-140? You know what, he may be. In my lifetime I will say he just maybe. Let me think as a type of the electric fighters I have seen at those weights. Zab Judah, Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley and Manny Pacquaio come to mind. Tank is right there with them as far as electricity. He may have an edge.
When I watch Tank fight, he reminds me of a mix of Mike Tyson, Zab Judah and Naseem Hamed. Hamed could spring in with punches using his legs as well as anyone I have seen in terms of 1 punch ko ability. Tank is right there with him.
I don’t give Jake Paul a pass. I barely talk about him. All I have ever said was he has heavy hands and solid boxing instincts. Um…Boxing is a business and Jake Paul does BIG business. He’s a fighter and a promoter. So he has POWER. He sets the price for his fights and he can influence the sanctioning bodies because the bigger the purse the bigger the sanctioning fee.
So, I expect Jake Paul to get a title shot if a fighter who’s vulnerable falls into a title that he wants. It literally all depends on who the champion is at the moment he’s ready. I wouldn’t rule out Jake Paul getting a title shot and actually winning a title.
I feel like Jake Paul has tricked everyone. I think he trains more serious than it appears. I think he acts crazy outside of the ring. And these opponents that he has think he’s some sort of clown. But while they are thinking that, I think he’s training very seriously. I think he’s maximizing his ability. I don’t think he’s a great fighter. I don’t believe he’s a super talent. But I think he’s being undervalued and underestimated and it’s why he’s winning most of these fights.
Factoring in how hard I believe Paul trains, and with his ability to pick who he wants to fight, he’s going to be very tough to beat again. Because in order for Paul to lose again, he would have to make a miscalculation in terms of who he PICKS to fight. Anyone he PICKS, he has a reasonable chance to WIN. A win is NOT guaranteed, don’t get me wrong. Unless the fight is FIXED. But with him being the promoter, his chances are greater than usual. Jake Paul is NOT a dumb guy. He’s not going to pick someone, then pay them to beat him up if he can help it.
I am relatively sure he would beat Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. And I also believe Mike Tyson needs to be on POINT to compete with Paul. I don’t have a winner of Tyson vs Paul just yet, but I will admit, I have concerns for Tyson in this fight. Remember Mike looked shot vs Kevin McBride about 20 years ago. Somehow that is being forgotten in this because Tyson has this unique charisma, where every time he fights, the public ONLY remembers his prime and they dismiss everything else…Well, I know better…
Did it surprise you to hear that Vasiliy Lomachenko ended negotiations with Gervonta Davis? I don’t understand it at all. The Davis fight is the big money payday Lomachenko has been missing his whole career. What are your thoughts on this situation? Thank you!
Bread’s Response: No, after I saw Loma’s last fight and I listened to his interview, I can tell he’s a man that is almost through with boxing. He said he wanted to give it up but he did the Kambosos fight for his dad. He was very emotional. He was also emotionally depleted after his fight with Devin Haney. So it didn’t surprise me that he didn’t want to go through another hard camp vs a tremendous fighter in Tank Davis. An ageing fighter has to be UP, to have a good camp. It’s a 2 letter word, but those who know, know.
Would you call Loma breaking off the talks with Tank a duck? I feel like when Tank wasn’t ready for the fight, no one said much. Floyd Mayweather came out and said he would make Tank face Loma as if it was a punishment. That was a few years back. Now that Loma is much older and Tank looks like he’s at his peak, Tank is ready to fight. Smart management for Tank but Loma doesn’t have to go along with it.
Bread’s Response: I never said Tank ducked Loma. I just understood when he first won the title he wasn’t ready for him. Loma was on a historic run at 130lbs. There are only a few men in history that would’ve beaten him on that run…..So until I hear Loma’s explanation for ending the negotiations I won’t call it a DUCK either. Camp is a GRIND. Loma is about 36 or 37 if I’m not mistaken. He’s been taking killer 12 round championship fights for his entire career, literally. When a fighter needs a break. He needs a break.
The fights are euphoric for the fighters. They love fighting. They love when the crowd and media praise their work and they get to show the world the fruits of their labor. The camp is the TOUGH part. Most fighters will tell you that. The commitment it takes to get through a real, well ran camp is something you would have to be a part of to understand. From my understanding, Loma does his camps in the US. That in itself is a commitment. So if he’s not UP for a camp at this moment, I totally understand it. I don’t question Loma’s heart, he’s taken killer fights his ENTIRE career. If anyone deserves GRACE in this era, it’s him…..
It seems the Mexico vs Puerto Rico rivalry is being promoted again with the announcement of Canelo vs Berlanga. But I think the rivalry is overrated. Mexico has won most of the recent fights. Why do you think that is? How did Berlanga get this fight, and how do you think it plays out? I think he has talent, but he seems like more of a prospect than a contender. Why didn’t he fight someone like Diego Pacheco to prove he deserved the fight and to get better?
Bread’s Response: Puerto Rico has some BIG wins in the rivalry with Wilfredo Gomez beating Lupe Pintor and Carlos Zarate. Felix Trinidad beating Yori Boy Campas, Oscar De La Hoya (Mexican American) and Fernando Vargas (Mexican American). And Miguel Cotto getting revenge vs Antonio Margarito. But you’re correct. For the most part recently the Mexicans have prevailed.
I don’t know exactly why but often it comes down to what talent the region has produced. The best prospect that PR has produced recently is Felix Verdejo and he turned out to be a fraud of a fighter and a despicable human being. But everything goes in WAVES. Sometimes an area is HOT. Other times it gets a little cold. It’s how everything works in life. PR boxing is fine and more champions will emerge.
Stylistically I think the PR fighters have trouble with the Mexican fighter’s relentlessness. It’s really simple if you watch the fights. When the Mexican fighters win. It’s usually because they just outlasted their rivals in wars of attrition.
On to Edgar Berlanga…. The world seems upset with him because he got the fight. It’s not his fault. Most would do it how he did it. He hit the lottery in boxing withOUT having to run through a BRICK WALL to do it. Good for him and his team. Speaking of his team, his MANAGEMENT has been fantastic. You talk about maximizing his value. My goodness what a job they have done.
In boxing, I personally think that trainers are UNDERRATED and managers sometimes get too much credit because the trainer has to train the product to perform and hour for hour in terms of labor, the trainer puts in more work than anyone. But in Berlanga’s case, whatever he’s paying his manager, he needs to pay them a BONUS.
Berlanga didn’t fight Diego Pacheco or a guy like Steve Nelson when they were with TR because he has SMART management. That’s why. And he would’ve been the UNDERDOG in each fight. He could’ve possibly lost and the Canelo fight would’ve been OFF the table. So they kept him undefeated which was smart. By the way, this is not a criticism of Berlanga. I think he’s a solid talent with a big punch and some charisma. I’m just stating the obvious.
Some fighters you have to match for BUSINESS. Some fighters you match to GET better and be P4P fighters. Some fighters you do the best you can with opportunities. With Berlanga being a big punching MW, SMW from New York and he happens to be of Puerto Rican descent it’s easier to match him because of the business he draws. And with how he started struggling after his string of 1st rd kos stopped, I don’t blame his team for NOT matching him so much to get better. He would’ve lost or struggled too much and he would’ve been devalued. And they would’ve lost their INVESTMENT. I would have picked Diego Pacheco to beat him. Probably by stoppage. There is a reason for everything. You just have to acknowledge it when you see it.
How I see the fight going…I actually think Canelo is slipping. And if Berlanga can just fight hard and give a good account of himself, he can SECURE other BIG paydays which is the goal of a fighter in his position. So Berlanga doesn’t have to WIN. But he can’t go out and embarrass himself and get stopped within 2 rounds. A good camp and a good gameplan will allow him to fight a good fight. Berlanga has to also be professional… He can’t quit or get purposefully DQd, which is also a possibility with his past behavior being factored in.
I believe Canelo wins. It just depends on HOW motivated he is to SCORE the stoppage. Only GREAT fighters prosper in Canelo’s position. Most experts don’t believe Berlanga has a chance. They believe that Canelo stops him brutally whenever he wants. Well that’s the PRESSURE of expectations. Everyone can’t just go delivery under those expectations. Any sign of a slight struggle and the critics come chirping. So again, the circumstances favor Berlanga.
I wonder if Canelo will be motivated to train. He has 64 fights and once you get to a certain point, you need motivation. I really wonder if Berlanga can motivate an ageing Canelo? This is a real thing. But let’s say Canelo does train hard and is motivated. I expect him to stop Berlanga inside of 8 rounds unless Berlanga just goes in full defensive mode. If Canelo is not motivated I still expect him to win but I expect some exciting moments. Let’s see how it plays out.
When a big fight gets announced I always think of a historic comparison. Several come to mind for different reasons. Here they are; Julian Jackson was an undefeated ko artist when he challenged Mike McCallum for the title in 1986. Jackson was stopped in a 2 round fire fight….
Pete Rademacher making his pro debut against Floyd Patterson for the heavyweight championship. Rademacher was an Olympian but his pedigree only went so far and he was stopped in 6.
Leon Spinks 7-0 vs Muhammad Ali. Spinks actually won the 1st fight vs an unmotivated Ali in his biggest career win.
John Mugabi vs Marvin Hagler. Mugabi was 26-0 with 26 kos. A straight killer and was actually the #1 contender and had EARNED the spot. He was stopped in 11 rounds in a great fight. I think the powers that be wanted Berlanga to ascend like Mugabi but that didn’t work out when the kos stopped.
Last but not least Gerry Cooney vs Larry Holmes. Cooney was stopped in 13 rounds. But he put up a great effort. Cooney vs Holmes really reminds me of Berlanga vs Canelo. Berlanga and Cooney are both NY natives. Both had large followings despite never being a world champion. Both are big punchers but considered a little inexperienced for the HOF champion they were challenging. Both also were matched more for business than for greatness. If Berlanga can perform as well as Cooney, he would have done himself and his team proud. Cooney fought a helluva fight and his performance secured him more big fights afterwards. I actually think Cooney is ahead of Berlanga in terms of development at this same stage but the parallels are very similar. I think a Cooney-level performance is Berlanga’s best case scenario.
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