In this week’s mailbag, highly-regarded coach Stephen “Breadman” Edwards has more reflections on Beterbiev-Bivol, having rewatched the fight, he ponders what is next and what went wrong for Tim Tszyu and answers questions about, among other topics, Stephen Fulton and Kyrone Davis.
Hello Breadman,If you were balloted how would you vote in this years IBHOF? (https://www.boxingscene.com/international-boxing-hall-fame-35-it-time-update-process–186527) What is your current p4p top 10 after last weekend? I have 1. Inoue 2. Usyk 3. Crawford 4. Bam 5. Bivol 6. Canelo 7. Tank 8. Beterbiev 9. Shakur 10. O.Collazo (I like him a lot). Usyk deserves #1 for what he’s done, but if they were the same size I’d pick Inoue. I thought Bivol won. The guys above Beterbiev I’d pick over him if they were the same weight. Canelo’s getting old. I could switch him with Tank. I saw somebody say there’s an argument for Beterbiev to be above Crawford p4p which I find baffling. Crawford is a complete fighter who can fight any way he needs to. Beterbiev only fights one way every time and relies heavily on his physicality. He is complete in that style but not complete all-around. Crawford is no slouch physically either along with his skills. So I wanted to ask you what criteria do you consider to be a complete fighter?
Much Respect
Bread’s Response: for some reason I can’t see your list on the Hall of Fame. But from what I can remember Manny Pacquiao is the only lock to get in. Maybe Michael Nunn, Darius Michalchewski, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank and Mikkel Kessler. But I haven’t done forensic research.
My current P4P list is easier. I’m living in the moment.
1a. Terence Crawford
1b. Monster Inoue
1c Oleksandr Usyk
- Bam Rodriguez
- Artur Beterbiev
- Dmitry Bivol
- Gervonta Davis
- Canelo Alvarez
- David Benavidez
- Jaron Ennis
Hi Bread, just writing in after that great light heavyweight fight. two great fighters in my book. I had it either 114-114 or 115-113 Beterbiev depending on the fifth round, which I’ve watched a few times and can’t decide who wins it. I’d given Bivol the first three like most people and Beterbiev the fourth. Shame people have had to throw the word robbery about for this fight. We should save that for all the bad judging that’s out there. Anyway would love your opinion on the fight, and how you thought different rounds went.
Cheers
Alun uk
Bread’s Response: Beterbiev vs Bivol was not a robbery. I finally watched it again. I thought Bivol won rounds 1,2,8 and 9 clean enough. I bring up Bivol because of the cries of robbery on his behalf. Beterbiev had a case for winning the third round. A strong case but let’s just say it was a swing round. Beterbiev also has a stronger case for winning 4 through 7. I thought he won the 7th which was viewed as a swing round. Bivol circled the block and took control of the 8th and 9th. And in my opinion Beterbiev won 10-12. Bivol fought well in the 12th but I think Beterbiev edged it. This was a close fight with at least four swing rounds. But in no way did I see a robbery.
Mr. Edwards
Haven’t written in for many months but proud to say I’m a long time fan and a religious reader of your mail bag. What did you think of Stephen Fulton’s performance last month? How would you grade it and what did you think of a few observations that I need help analyzing. Fulton has always impressed me as a complete fighter with great punch variety, punch release, feet, ring IQ, and the ability to fight at multiple if not all ranges. Historically I have loved his transition from boxing at range to walking dudes down and stepping into the pocket and out crafting and outpunching guys to the head and body. In his last fight he seemed to be slower and more focused on power at distance but not as good as his opponent in the mid-range. That;s where he got clipped and would often lose out in trading at that distance. I don’t know if he is decidedly weaker at mid range versus close and long range or if two factors caused this 1. Ring Rust and 2. trying to adjust to a new trainer and focusing more on power.
What did you see? In the latter rounds he out boxed his opponent at distance and got the win, but I noted how long it took him to figure out that his relative advantage was at range and loading up the right hand for power was counterproductive, whereas Caleb Plant’s corner saw where his relative advantage was, gave great insightful instructions in between the next two rounds, and Caleb seized upon his relative advantage within a round and stopped the dude who knocked him down within 3-4 rounds. It was amazing to me the contrast, and both fighters are excellent and both corners are excellent but it was stark. I didn’t realize until after the fight that Bozy Ennis was Fulton’s chief second because i didn’t recognize him with the beard and I missed the ring walk, intros and first 3 rounds.
I know Bozy is renowned but I think historically his previous head trainer gave better instructions in between each rounds and I think focusing on power shots is not Fulton’s core competency. Did you notice the difference in between rounds? Also, what is your take on Fulton standing each round? I think it should stay in the gym i.e. on fight night, you should sit for two primary reasons 1. You never know when you may need the rest so do it anyhow on fight night and 2. once you choose to stand, it’s hard to flip mid-fight because it shows some level of capitulation, which can encourage your opponent.
Would you let one of your fighters stand during a fight and would you put any stipulations on your ability to change mid fight?
Billy Bomaye
Bread’s Response: I agree with you on standing between rounds. Once you stand in a fight. You can’t sit down if you’re tired. You lose the mental edge if you sit during the fight after you started out standing.
As for Fulton, I’m not sure which of his other trainers you’re speaking of. I don’t want to put words in your mouth and you weren’t specific. I know both of his trainers by the way….
I thought he looked pretty good. He’s been in better form but it’s hard to judge a fighter after his first career loss. Especially when he was stopped and was then off for over a year. That’s counterproductive in most cases. I know there are cases where fighters have come back sharper but overall it’s a tough assignment. Let’s judge him on his next fight now that he got his comeback fight out of the way. We also have to give some credit to his opponent. Oftentimes the opponent in that case gets really up for the fight and he puts everything into it. I knew Fulton would have a tough fight. I saw his opponent. I saw his trainer. I saw their demeanor. I could tell it would be a tough scrap. And it was. I don’t want to be overly critical too early. If Fulton is not in better form in his next fight, let’s revisit this convo.
I gave rounds 1 thru 7 to Bivol plus round 9. Rounds 1-4 and round 9 were clear Bivol rounds. Round 5 and 6 could have gone to Beterbiev, Bivol’s work was cleaner. Artur was more active. Round 8 was the 1st clear Artur round, rounds 11 and 12 also clear for Artur. Round 7 is key to the scoring of this fight. Bivol dominated for 2 minutes, froze and backed up Artur starting with a beautiful right-left hook, but got hit with a big shot going in for the finish too eagerly (and too early imo). Then the last 50-55 seconds was Beterbiev pressuring while Bivol backed up. 2 of the 3 official judges and many spectators gave round 7 to Beterbiev, but if you concentrate fully for a full 3 minutes and not on how the round ended it should be a clear Bivol round in my view. By far the best and most skilful punch of the round was Bivol’s left, but Artur’s right maybe landed harder because Bivol went in recklessly and of course Artur is a naturally harder puncher. Key point is it’s clean punching not hardest punching, otherwise it becomes more of a strongman contest not a boxing contest. If you gave 5 and 6 to Beterbiev it’s a 114-114 draw and I wouldn’t argue too much. Draw or Bivol win for me. If you (wrongly imo) also give Beterbiev round 7 it’s 115-113 to Beterbiev. Teddy Atlas had it this way to Artur with these rounds the only ones different to my card. All 3 judges gave rd. 8 to Bivol.
Bread’s response: Bivol did not win the first seven rounds. I disagree strongly. Team Bivol didn’t even think they won the first seven rounds. Basically you’re saying Bivol had the fight mathematically won by the eighth round, that’s not the fight anyone saw….
Sup Breadman
My younger brother trains at a local small town boxing gym. Now the gym is owned by a Mexican born trainer and the majority of the fighters are Mexican American kids. Now I don’t think it would be wrong to say that boxing, for lack of a better term, is a “racial” sport. Now I don’t mean this in a derogatory manner. Simply race has a big effect on the sport, be it fighting styles and matchups. Now my question is, based on your experience, what are the differences, if any, between gyms where people of different backgrounds train? How does a gym where predominantly black fighters train differ from a “Mexican” gym if you will. Is it simply a style thing or how do training methods differ? Maybe it’s not a race thing but more of a gym to gym thing. I hope my question doesn’t come off as ignorant. I mention my younger brother because I feel like he isn’t necessarily receiving the best instruction at the gym he trains at and I’ve thought of looking for somewhere else for him to train. Hope you and yours are doing well, Thank you, God bless.
Bread’s Response: You’re not wrong. Some people will just never openly admit it. Fighters flock to trainers who oftentimes have their same racial or ethnic background. It’s not to say that you have to share the same race to train a fighter. But it is often a factor.
I personally think I can train any fighter, who has some talent and discipline. It doesn’t have to be in abundance but it is needed. I don’t care about the race. But I would be foolish to say it doesn’t matter. I would be disingenuous to say it’s not something that gets talked about. Training methods differ from region to region and race to race. Even gym to gym. You have to find your fit and stick with it.
I just gave myself tinnitus watching Kyrone Davis vs Elijah Garcia on Youtube. I turned the volume up loud so I could hear what you were shouting from the corner. I didn’t know that Kyrone volunteers with people with Down Syndrome. I will be rooting for him from now on for sure. I didn’t score it but it looked hard to see Garcia winning more than three rounds. If BoxRec is accurate, that judge John Mckaie has an interesting history, he apparently got moved up to prominent/title level fights very quickly in his career if you go back right to the first page of his Boxrec profile. I made a few notes as I was watching it. Kyrone does pretty much everything well. You are probably right that he will need to be a mandatory. He isn’t an easy night’s work for anybody. I saw a little of everything, some good foot feints, nice variation of the right hand, his balance is extremely good, always set to punch and/on the move. His hands are pretty quick – and eye catching – when he puts them together. His concentration levels are good. It was a very disciplined fight. He would also make sure to fire back and not allow Garcia to outwork him or give the impression he was being dominant. He trusts his chin and is willing to get hit, so he sees everything that comes at him meaning – if he is in the correct position – he can counter or get enough on a shot to take the sting off it. I liked how he would finish strong when he heard the clapper. My only real criticism of him as a fighter from what I saw would be that I feel he could work on his judgement of distance, he was often half a step closer than I would have liked him to be (same problem with Bivol vs Beterbiev). My only real criticisms of the fight he fought would be that he gave the body up a little too easy for my liking at times, and I felt he would know at times he needed to move but would go anywhere out the wrong side, towards the bulk of Garcia’s body not outside of it into the more open space, and get caught. It seemed a little pre-programmed more than processing on the fly if that makes sense. If I was going to break down how to beat him from an opposition research point of view I would look for a lot of feints to feint him out of position, counter the counter and make him over move. Probably in a low volume fight not giving him the opportunity to land those clean eye catching shots. If you try to outwork him he can stand and bang. If you try to outbox him you better be fast and have good footwork. I would also like to have seen him go inside more and dirty box a little in spots like an Andre Ward or early Ricky Hatton. Or even the way Fury would land a 1-2 then tie up in the 3rd Wilder fight. It’s not going to be possible to move and dance around every opponent, particularly at top level, and because he doesn’t seem to have the pop to deter guys from coming in. So I worry he could potentially tire himself out. He can steal rounds with speed cuteness and sharpness, then smother to kill some of the clock. I was trying to find a good example of some early Ricky Hatton fights, maybe the Ben Tackie fight, it’s on Youtube, but not the best example. Hatton would smother people while pulling their arms out of the way and hitting them behind the elbow. I noticed in one round you said good right hand a few times when he didn’t throw one, I think as a clever way to prompt him. I will be honest, between round 3 and 4 I couldn’t follow and remember all of the instructions you gave. It was a lot even for me sat watching calmly and not in the middle of a fight. It was a really great job overall, I could tell that you both prepared well against a guy with a size advantage. It’s a good victory but you both have bigger ones yet to come. The confidence and experience from this fight should make Kyrone even better. I will say this: If Adames can’t hurt Kyrone, then Kyrone probably beats him on points. I will take that bet!
Bread’s Response: I’m glad you brought up John Mckaie. I don’t take it lightly what he tried to do to my fighter. And I don’t think it was incompetence either. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. When the scorecards were being read, the crowd booed Mckaie. What I found to be profound was he seemed irritated that he was on the island alone and none of the other judges handed in a scorecard to validate his. You don’t usually see a fight where a judge has the fight 98-92 and the other two judges have it 97-93 the other way. Their realities or perceptions were too far off. I watched him very closely as the scorecards were announced. He couldn’t make eye contact with me. He knew that I knew what he did and what he was trying to do. John Mckaie also scored the Julian Williams vs Vladimir Hernandez fight 96-94 for Hernandez. Watch that fight closely if you get a chance round by round and tell me what you got. Needless to say, if I see Mckaie’s name on any judge’s panel that I am involved in, I will ask to have him removed. I spoke with the commission about him immediately after the fight.
You’re correct about the breakdown of the fight. I thought Kyrone did great but he did let some body punches get through. He told me that he made a choice to give up a little to the body, instead of to the head. He told me he was blocking a lot of the body punches partially with his forearms and they weren’t as damaging as they looked. All I can say is I took his word. He doesn’t believe in being carried fast. And although Garcia is a big kid, with a big punch, Kyrone has big character and he’s extremely physically tough.
The one thing I will disagree about is his punch. I know his KO% percentage doesn’t indicate it, but he can punch. He’s been matched really tough, often times vs durable super middleweights. He also at times has come in the ring a little out of shape. So you add that up and you won’t have a glossy ko%. But watch his fights closely, his opponents are respecting something. They don’t just run up on him without regard. They approach him with caution. If he couldn’t punch Garcia would have walked through him.
Kyrone was very intentional with his punches. With Garcia he wasn’t trying to hit him hard. He was trying hit him hard enough. He did that. Kyrone deserves a title shot. He just beat a RING rated fighter who was ranked number #1 by the WBA. Kyrone is only ranked #11 after the win. I don’t understand it.
I would love a fight with Erislandy Lara or Carlos Adames. Both are part of the PBC stable. Both are at 160lbs. With proper notice I feel he would beat both. And it’s only one way to prove it. We are ready, when they are. But in all honesty, I doubt if Kyrone gets a title shot unless he’s the mandatory.
Hey Bread. Hope all is well. My question is how can you tell if a fighter is shot or just lack of confidence coming off of several bad losses. The fighter I am referring to is Christopher Colbert. He showed Major promise coming up. Beating top level opposition very handily. And his last four fights it’s all come crumbling down. Do you feel he’s shot, which in his last fight he looked or do you think it is just a lack of confidence and maybe fighting above his natural weight class?
Bread’s Response: Sometimes a fighter can just be in a slump or funk. I’ve been through them with some fighters. But never anything like what Colbert is going through. I can’t really tell to be honest if he’s shot or just has a loss of confidence. I don’t know him well enough to say either way.
When I see fighters go through slumps, I always suggest a structured approach so you can chart your progress. If you wing it or do everything impromptu, you won’t have anything to refer back to. The workouts need to be written down. Mile times. Rounds sparred. Etc etc.
I do notice that Colbert talks in the corner often between rounds. So I’m not sure if his behind the scenes training is structured. He may or may not know where things went wrong….
Physically I don’t think he can make 126lbs. But 130lbs is doable. He’s doesn’t look stripped down to the last calorie at 136lbs. His eye looks like there is droop on his eye lid. And his legs are not underneath him. I don’t know why…. But That’s what I noticed physically. I can’t speak on the mental stuff, but physically he can overcome those things.
Unfortunately we are in an era where veterans will retire with less than 30 fights. So if you go through a 4 fight, slump it’s a large part of your career. Let’s see how it plays out, he’s only 28 but he’s going to need some structure. And most important, he’s going to have to allow himself to be structured. I wish him the best. He has some talent. He just lost his way but he’s 28.
What’s up Breadman? Congratulations for your bet on the Beterbiev vs Bivol fight. Have you watched the fight again ? It’s on youtube, Turki Alalshikh posted it. I actually had to watch it 3 times to enjoy it, both guys were very very good! The first time I saw it, I felt like Beterbiev underperformed a little, and Bivol was really effective, in a super close fight. But when I watched it again, I didn’t feel the same way about Beterbiev. I guess I was caught by my expectations, and by the way he surpassed his last opponents. The pressure he applied and the volume of punches he threw are a beauty to watch ! Even at 39, he still has amazing conditioning.I am so disappointed they didn’t show replay of his best shots until the last rounds, because people would have realized more the effect of his punches. Beterbiev and Bivol don’t land their shots the same way at all, it made me think about Golovkin vs Canelo, with Bivol being Canelo in that one. His shots are more judge and public friendly. I hope there will be a rematch! What would be your pick? And what do you think both of them have to work on ?Another fighter put on a strong performance on that night, Jai Opetaia! I felt like he tried to be more poised in that fight and pick his shots better. What did you think about his fight? And what do you think about his chances against Ramirez or Billam Smith? Thanks for your time!
Max from France
Bread’s Response: Yes I finally watched it again. A draw would have been a fair verdict and I am not upset at all Beterbiev got the decision. He made a strong case for himself. And I don’t like rescoring fights. But because I was distracted while watching it live, I watched it again. I am comfortable with the decision and most importantly, there aren’t rounds that Beterbiev won that I feel were clear Bivol rounds. So I didn’t see corruption or a judge bending over backwards to give an underserved round away.
If they fight a rematch. I think Beterbiev has to start faster and get to the body more. He has to start the sand in the hour glass process earlier.
Bivol has to find a way to be more aggressive while not getting clipped. Bivol had success when he let his hands go but the issue is, how dangerous that is vs Beterbiev.
I don’t want to make a pick on a rematch just yet. But initial gut reaction is Bivol will win a decision or Beterbiev by ko because it’s just human nature to give it to the fighter who you felt was wronged the first time around. Public sentiment is more in Bivol’s favor.
I also believe Bivol would be more aggressive. But while being more aggressive I can see Beterbiev clipping him. The more you open up, the more vulnerable you are.
This is not official but this is my initial reaction. I don’t believe Beterbiev will win two close decisions but he can stop him under the right circumstances.
What do you think went wrong with Tim Tszyu? Not many saw that coming. You have a reputation for getting the most out of fighters after a bad loss. Do you think you could take Tszyu on and help him? I read your tweets that it will be hard to come back from the loss. But it’s just one loss. Also how do you feel his matchmaking has been? There are several fighters criticizing his matchmaking but I’m not on the inside so it’s hard to say.
Bread’s Response: I definitely don’t want to kick Tszyu while he’s down. I know he’s going to catch some hard press for his loss. And when I heard Tim say, “What the F$%^ happened?” I felt for him. It’s exactly how I felt when Julian Williams lost to Jeison Rosario. So let me start….
Tszyu has been an opponent tossed around for Julian for several years. So I not only watched him, but I studied him. During the fight, I texted Julian and told him he could clip Tszyu in the first round because he’s infatuated with himself. I felt like Tszyu is a very good puncher. Maybe a 7.5 on a scale of 1 to 10. But Tim acts like he punches a 10. Like GGG or Beterbiev. I don’t see that type of power in him. I see a sharp, violent, counter puncher. I don’t see a lights out one punch guy.
Tim also fights like he can’t be hurt. Anyone can be hurt. But he stepped to Bakhram with disregard for what was coming back. No fighter wants to admit this. But not everyone has the same chin. Julio Cesar Chavez and Marvin Hagler come along once a decade.
So what I saw was a fighter who thought he could hurt his opponent without regard to what was coming back. And thought he could take whatever was coming back. Tszyu is super confident but you have to be humble with your confidence. Anyone can be hurt. And not everyone will go down as soon as you hit them. This attitude led to Tszyu’s demise.
What I saw in Bakhram was a motivated and improved fighter. It’s just that simple. He was prepared for his big moment. That left hook was a shot he saw when he studied Tszyu and he trained for the moment. That was a trained repetitive shot. I know it when I see it.
Matchmaking. When Tszyu fought Fundora, I said to myself, why would he take him as an opponent when he was training for a 5’7, right handed mover in Keith Thurman. So I didn’t like the late switch. I also didn’t think Tim should fight Vergil Ortiz or Terence Crawford in his next fight after Fundora, like it was allegedly proposed.
But after thinking hard, I don’t think the Bakhram fight was bad matchmaking. Tszyu was a 7 to 1 favorite. Bakhram had just struggled with a 39 yr old Jack Culcay. Bakhram had taken step aside money 4x in the past and it seemed as though his team had no confidence in him. And more importantly he was a champion and it’s very difficult to turn down a title shot as a 7 to 1 favorite at 29 years old.
I also don’t like the criticism of matchmaking AFTER a fight. If you feel that way, predict it before the fight and say why. Don’t wait until the result and then say it. When you wait until after the result, you can’t lose with the criticism. In that case Tim just has to deliver. Bakhram had never looked that good before and he was viewed as the weakest link as far as champions at 154lbs. As a boxing community we need to stop with the micro-criticizing. If we want the best to fight the best. Tszyu should be celebrated. He tried to take smoke, he just couldn’t beat Bakhram. But if he turned down a title shot and took on a no hope guy in Austraila, there would be even more criticism.
Yes I stated it would be very hard for Tim to come back from this. Here is why. Tim is a little undersized at 154lbs. He prides himself as a seek and destroy fighter. He calls himself the Soul Taker. Destructive fighters usually don’t come back to full capacity after bad ko losses. John Mugabi, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Naseem Hamed etc etc. It’s not impossible but it’s rare. His father Kostya Tszyu was able to come back. But again that’s rare and Kostya was an elite amateur who’s boxing ability was cultivated at a much earlier age.
I bring up Tszyu’s size because he’s not going to sit back and outbox elite junior middleweights. He’s an attacking sharp fighter. So there’s not much leverage room with his style. He’s going to have to modify his style without changing his approach. Tszyu will need an elite trainer to pull this off.
Last but not least, his opponents will now fight him harder. Each fight will be 10% harder at this point. No one will ever be afraid of him again. All of his opponents will have hope at this point. If the Fundora loss was a fluke, this one won’t be viewed that way. I won’t get into too much technical stuff because he may have to fight one of my guys….
Jack Catterall is a 4-1 betting favorite over Regis Prograis. Does that surprise you? I expected these odds to be much closer. I think Prograis has a real chance to pull an upset here.
Bread’s Response: Prograis is a very capable fighter. But his current form tells me he probably won’t beat Catterall. So the timing and current form of both favor Catterall. I favor Catterall by 12 round UD.
Hey Breadman,
Hope you’re well and thank you for doing this every week. My question is about scoring rounds. When I first got into boxing I asked my older brother how do you know who’s won a round, and he said ‘watch the round. The guy who you would rather have been during the round won it’ (or something to that effect). I have used this mentality since and found it really useful for scoring fights. Whenever my friends who aren’t particularly into boxing watch it with me and ask the same question, I give that same answer and they seem to immediately understand most of what goes into winning a round. I’ve also heard Andy Clarke (a British commentator) say that he pictures both fighters having an energy/health bar, like in a video game, and whoever has lost more of their energy bar by the end of the round has lost it. I like these ways of scoring rounds because it encompasses everything (punch power, punch accuracy, defense, movement) and is simple to understand. Now for my question. Do you think people overcomplicate scoring fights? I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that Bivol vs. Beterbiev was a robbery (which it wasn’t, even if you had Bivol winning) on the basis that Beterbiev can only win if you give him points for coming forward, etc. But I think if you watch the fight with the mindset of “who would I have rather been” it is easy to see an argument for both fighters. I just think a lot of boxing “controversies” come from people not knowing how to score rounds and therefore thinking a fight should’ve been a lot wider than it was.Thank you again for doing this every week and have a good one.
Dean, London
Bread’s Response: You know I get exhausted trying to tell people how to score a fight. I was once at a prominent fight, Canelo vs Lara. I sat in a row of boxers and I told everyone near us that Canelo was getting the rounds and he would win. Several world class fighters disagreed with me until after the decision. I just had a sense that although Lara was boxing his butt off, that the judges were in favor of Canelo.
I don’t say whoever is coming forward wins. I don’t say you have to take the title from the champion. I don’t even say you can’t fight in spurts because you may do more in your spurt than the other guy did in the whole round.
Clean Punching, effective aggressiveness, ring generalship and defense are the criterion of which you score a fight. Or who would you rather be in a simplistic form. Let me add, who would you rather be objectively. Not who you would want to be. I agree with that simplistic definition.
But I will say I disagree with the energy bar analogy. I could care less who spent more energy. That shouldn’t matter. What if a fighter landed 50 punches, and the other fighter landed 2. But the fighter who landed 50 punches was exhausted and the fighter who landed 2 was fresh? Are you giving the round to the fighter who landed 2 punches? No way in hell. So for context you have to be careful with too many caveats. Although I love the who would you rather be analogy…
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