Stephen Espinoza: “Canelo Alvarez made his feelings clear about David Benavidez”

Saul “Canelo” Alvarez has his third consecutive fight under the PBC umbrella next month, when he looks to add Edgar Berlanga’s scalp to those of Jermell Charlo and Jaime Munguia.

Canelo is once again aligning himself with Al Haymon’s promotional entity, a couple of months after the PBC double-header that saw Gervonta Davis knock out Frank Martin and David Benavidez extended by Oleksandr Gvozdyk.

But despite those gala events, it has been well-documented that PBC’s first year in the post-Showtime era has not gone fully to plan, so the chance to work again with Canelo, and load up another undercard at the T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, has been welcomed.

“It’s fantastic to continue working with him,” admitted PBC advisor and former Showtime Sports boss Stephen Espinoza. “Personally, I’ve got a long relationship with him going back to 2013 and the Showtime days and more recently it seems he’s pretty happy with the relationship and satisfied with the work he’s doing, satisfied with the results, so all of PBC is thrilled he’s working with PBC again on another big event.”

Of course, the marriage this time around has not come without widespread criticism. In Berlanga, the choice of opponent is not the one the fans craved, but Canelo has repeatedly ruled out facing his top challenger at 168lbs, David Benavidez, who is a PBC fighter.

“Look, it’s always going to be challenging with Canelo, it’s always challenging when you’ve got a top one, two or three pay-per-view guy and convincing everyone your fights are going to be competitive. We saw that in the [Floyd] Mayweather days,” Espinoza added – although he was at least pleased to see some additional spice between Alvarez and Berlanga following their press conference in Los Angeles after both boxers seemed to merely go through the motions a day earlier in New York.

“Both fighters showed a bit of spark, some fire, some emotion and you clearly got the sense that Berlanga is not a guy who is there just to show up, that he’s motivated, that he’s not intimidated and all of that really helps because when you’ve got a guy as experienced and as accomplished as Canelo, one of your big challenges is convincing people that his fights will be competitive.”

It has been well-documented that Canelo calls the shots, but at some point both PBC and Prime must have a say on who the opponent might be.   

“Canelo has earned the right to steer his career by this point, and ultimately he does listen, he does take feedback, we did evaluate and negotiate with more than one potential opponent so there is definitely back and forth,” Espinoza explained. “He ultimately does make the final call in terms of the deal that he’s happy with, the structure, the opponent, and all of those types of things, and ultimately it’s PBC’s choice to be involved, and obviously there’s no consideration to not be involved. He’s the biggest star in the sport. He does massive events and there’s no reason to think this is not going to be another massive event for him.”

The choice of opponent wound up being a two-horse race between Berlanga and England’s Chris Eubank, but Berlanga got the call for September 14. Was Benavidez’s name mentioned at all this time around?

“It was discussed,” Espinoza said. “But I think Canelo’s made his feelings pretty clear on that, so it was a short discussion.”

Espinoza has never given up on his hopes that the fight might eventually happen, and he still remains cautiously positive.

“I do. Call me naïve or overly optimistic, but I’m not going to close the door on anything. I think it is clearly not in Canelo’s character, it’s not in his track record to avoid high level fights, to avoid tough fights. You can pick any number of probably a half dozen fights where people told him not to take it, that it was too early, too tough a fight, or just not feasible or not advisable, but Canelo’s his own guy and he has never shied away from challenges and that’s why I wouldn’t close the book on it unless he retires without having fought Benavidez. 

“The Canelo that we’ve seen over the last decade-plus is not a guy who avoids tough fights.”

Espinoza also expects to see Benavidez out again before the end of the year, and was satisfied with his 175lbs debut win over Gvozdyk in June.

“I think there was a lot of conclusions that he’s not well-suited for 175; I don’t think that at all,” Espinoza explained. “I think he could have moved up to 175 and looked like the monster that he always has if he had taken an easier fight. But taking on someone who was skilled, and durable, and formerly performed at elite level, I think that says more about his [Benavidez’s] performance than anything else. I think he can do ‘68 or ‘75. He can certainly make ‘68. The question is where the opportunities are going to be. Whether it’s [David] Morrell or potentially Canelo or others, I think he’s flexible in both and he’s certainly in his prime and he’s someone who should stay active as well.”

What became clear in June is that Benavidez’s star is rising and his stock is growing. The cheers for him were almost as prolific as they were for Davis, and Benavidez carried himself like a star. 

“People forget that he started on the stage at a very young age and we literally see him mature physically and in all other respects right in front of us, because if you look back at the highlights of his Showtime fights, he still looks like a teenager,” said Espinoza. “He doesn’t look like he’s fully filled out. That comes with man strength, and he’s clearly very comfortable physically, very comfortable in his family life and his personal life. He’s very comfortable in front of the cameras and in the star position, so I think the biggest and the best is still to come from David. He’s just hitting his prime and I’m excited to see what happens in the near future.” 

He will not, however, figure in Canelo’s near future. Berlanga does.

Although Berlanga is from New York, he has Puerto Rican roots and the fight is being sold as the latest in a long line of rivalries featuring Puerto Rican and Mexican stars. It might be a break-glass-for-storyline-type instant angle, but both markets will be invested even if more discerning boxing judges might think Canelo wins big and possibly early.

“That’s one facet of it,” Espinoza said of national pride being at stake. “I get it. As a sport, we go to it relatively frequently but it is a real rivalry, particularly in the sport of boxing. It is a real thing. It’s not as if we’re inventing something and we’re trying to convince people there’s a rivalry when there’s not. But that’s just one facet and I think there are other interesting facets.

“It’s interesting to see a young, hungry, motivated upstart, against a guy with the level of experience and at the age that Canelo is. I think that’s always a challenge, as well as facing someone with the power that Berlanga clearly has. He’s demonstrated throughout his career that he does have one-punch power, and any time that you see that, that is something that can change the course of the fight in an instant.”

Of course, part of the reason why Berlanga has been on the receiving end already is because his name is not David Benavidez. It has been well-documented that Canelo has called for a purse in the region of $150m-200m to take on “The Mexican Monster”. Is that a figure that anyone in the western world could get close to? 

“As a guarantee? No. Look, he’s never said that number to us,” Espinoza stated. “I’ve read the same things that you’ve read. I haven’t really discussed it with Canelo, so I don’t know the base of it. Obviously, apart from some of what’s been reported on behalf of the Saudis in terms of what they may or may not be paying, the only fights that come close to that level of guarantee have been the couple of biggest fights in history, the Mayweather-[Conor] McGregor and Mayweather-[Manny] Pacquiao-type fights.”

But even those astronomical sums would not have been guaranteed from the outset.  

“At a certain point in that process, anyone could have come along and guaranteed that sort of guarantee on those fights, once it was clear where it was. I don’t know if it was a negotiating ploy [from Canelo] or a statement or whether it was a way to get rid of the conversation. Whatever it is, I don’t put a lot of credence in it. That was a discussion PBC wasn’t really part of.”

Canelo clearly likes to be his own boss, to the extent that over the last few days he has crossed swords with Turki Alalshikh, the Riyadh Season powerbroker pouring money into the high-end of the sport.

They have both walked away from the table this week, Canelo saying he is focused only on Berlanga after the Saudi’s reached out to him about a fight early next year. It created an impasse. 

“It seemed clear the immediate deadline was not something he [Canelo] was going to respond to and he really didn’t want to have discussions about a future fight in the middle of promoting his current fight, so if that means that’s the end of that opportunity, then Canelo’s clearly okay with that,” Espinoza said. “But it certainly provided a lot of fireworks and some interesting back and forth.”

While Canelo is wealthy enough to tread his own path, and he makes enough money to work with anyone he chooses, the Riyadh Season influence is taking hold of the sport, with reports of a future league and a desire to get as much of the sport under one umbrella as possible. That is something boxing has needed, but it is also something that might concern those who worry about the status quo being interrupted and changes that might not benefit everyone.

“It’s not more concerning than the structure there is now,” Espinoza said, of the grand Saudi plans that were laid out in the media earlier this year. “There are divides, big and small in the current structure and that’s part of the problem, in terms of getting some of the fights made.”

Espinoza said it was up to the fighters who they wanted to work with and under what deal structure, though admitted very few had said ‘no’ to Alalshikh and surely the deepest pockets in boxing history. 

“What you’ve seen is a few high-profile individuals saying they’re not comfortable with that business structure or the way of negotiating or the ultimatums given, which is fine,” Espinoza continued. “I think that’s one of the good things about boxing. I think the fact that fighters do have autonomy and freedom to make their own choices and determine the direction of their careers is one of the things that makes boxing attractive to young athletes and I think it’s something that is necessary for the modern athlete. I don’t think the modern athlete is really as comfortable as past generations have been in being told how to do something, when to do it, where to do it and for how much money. The sort of ‘my way or the highway’ thing doesn’t fly with a lot of the modern athletes.”

And while Riyadh Season has been focused on pay-per-views, PBC has only presented three shows this year, all pay-per-views. The idea had been for Prime Video to host non-PPV cards, with an original target date of June pushed back to mid-August and a Florida double-header that featured Stephen Fulton and Caleb Plant. But when Plant’s opponent, Trevor McCumby, was cut, the date was shelved and Plant-McCumby, along with Fulton, were added to the Canelo card.

“There was going to be a mid-August date and the cut to McCumby cancelled that, obviously the next PBC date will be the 14th [of September]. But as I had suggested back around the time of the Tank fight, I think what we’re looking for in the latter part of ’24, and certainly in ’25, is a more regular pace; a more regular pace of non pay-per-view shows, in terms of the volume of shows. I know people are very impatient. It hasn’t even been six months under this new relationship with Prime as the primary partner so I would preach a little bit of patience. I know everybody wants things to be where they were after 30 years of Showtime and HBO being in the sport, but it’s gonna take time. The media business is resetting, and it took a while. Showtime didn’t launch with as robust a schedule as we had in 2023, that’s for sure. If people can be patient… I know that’s not something that is popular these days, but if we can withhold judgment until the full plans have rolled out, then I think people can have a full picture and can draw their own conclusions. 

“If we look back at the initial [Prime] announcement, there was an announcement that the Prime deal was 12-14 events per year with a mix of pay-per-view and non pay-per-view. If you look at the history of PBC, they’ve been relatively opportunistic with pay-per-views. They haven’t ever said, ‘We’re going to do six pay-per-views, or do a UFC 12 or 13 pay-per-views come hell or highwater.’ I don’t think anyone really resents Canelo being on pay-per-view or Tank being pay-per-view or some of these high-level fights, so those are going to continue to be pay-per-view. And if they’re the fights that merit pay-per-view, then they’ll be there.

“But I think there will be a very healthy mix of non-pay-per-view and pay-per-view by the time we get to the end of ’24 and the start of ’25.”

There were reports that Davis-Martin and Benavidez-Gvozdyk did in excess of 300,000 buys, and Davis had been set to go into a fascinating fight with Top Rank counterpart Vasiliy Lomachenko. But the Ukrainian has said he won’t fight again in 2024, and that leaves Davis looking for a dance partner with whom to close out the year. 

“It’s interesting. Everyone was sort of all-in on Lomachenko,” said Espinoza. “Everyone was hoping and there was good momentum behind that. That obviously is not happening. The obvious one lurking in the background was Pitbull [Isaac Cruz]. I think it’s a good question now. Does that mean [Jose] Valenzuela [who beat Cruz last week], that ‘Rayo’ is a top option? I think it’s reasonable to think so, but ultimately we haven’t really discussed any of that with Tank. He definitely wants to fight before the end of the year. Could be Valenzuela, but it certainly could be any number of other fighters.”

Davis has been in Paris for the Olympics, so things went quiet after Lomachenko chose to take his time. What did not go quiet was the speculation about Shakur Stevenson’s next move as a free agent, and Espinoza admitted there have been talks with PBC and that he would love to see Tank-Shakur.

“I don’t know anyone that hasn’t reached out and had discussions with Shakur,” Espinoza went on. “He’s a really interesting talent, a really-skilled fighter just reaching the peak of his career, so anybody would be a fool to not talk to him or at least hear him out.

“I like it [Tank-Shakur]. I like that fight. Certainly, there’s going to be no shortage of trash talking, there already has been; it’s an interesting match-up. You have the consummate, technical boxer against Tank, who I believe is an underrated boxer because of his highlight reel KOs, so it’s not as simple as power versus boxing skills, but it’s an interesting style match-up as well. I think that’s a really intriguing fight.”

It is a fight Espinoza said could happen this year, if both parties wanted it, but he did add it was far from imminent. Stevenson is heavily-linked to a fight elsewhere with William Zepeda. 

“Tank has been real clear on two things,” Espinoza elaborated. “He needs to fight again in 2024 and he wants the highest profile fights available.”

Around the time of Tank-Martin, there was a fracture when the bad blood between old friends Floyd Mayweather and Gervonta Davis became too great. It saw PBC’s Leonard Ellerbe part company with Floyd after decades of service, and Richard Schaefer was announced as Mayweather Promotions’ new CEO. But, according to Espinoza, that doesn’t close the door on Floyd working with PBC. The Espinoza-Mayweather partnership was one of the most lucrative business relationships in the sport’s history.

“Look, it is a little awkward around Tank,” admitted Espinoza. “Floyd played a big part in his early career and I wish those guys were able to work it out and coexist and all of that, because I think it’s good for both of them. But I think a healthy Mayweather Promotions is good for the sport of boxing. The more Floyd is in and around the sport, the more he helps elevate it. And the reality is, he’s always been a very good judge of talent. He was the one who personally brought Tank to my attention when he was still fighting off-TV back in, I think it was 2016, and the first time I saw him fight was when Floyd called and said, ‘Make sure you get to the arena early and see this kid.’ Same thing with [Curmel] Moton and a range of other fighters as well. He’s always had a good eye for talent. With Richard there, it looks like they’re going to make another go of it and I think that’s a great opportunity for them.”

As Mayweather Promotions goes again, Espinoza says the sport and the business side is undergoing a significant reset – although those linked to Riyadh Season probably do not agree with another three pay-per-views scheduled.

“It is a time of transition. I know that’s of little comfort to the fighters, but obviously Showtime was winding down at the end of last year, and there was a new deal ramping up and there will be a backlog. There is a backlog,” Espinoza stated. 

“But if we look at the sport overall, the sport overall is in a point of transition. If we look at the number of outlets, we went from, four or five years ago, having more outlets in the sport arguably than there ever had been – you had free over the air networks, you had premium cable, you had streamers, you had new entrants – and now you look at it, it’s been contracted. And a lot of it has to do with the overall state of the media business in the US, where premium cable is, the streamers and their interest or non-interest in sport overall, so I think for the entire sport, it’s not a PBC thing. 

“There’s been a lot of fighters who haven’t been as active and it’s a challenge for the sport and we’re in a time when it’s not only a challenge, it’s also an opportunity, because we do have an opportunity and an obligation to think about, how do we want the sport structured? Where are we going with it? How is it going to work going forward? What are the outlets and what is the business model and what is the appropriate level of compensation and all of those things. We’re at an inflection point and I think it’s incumbent on everyone in the sport to think how we structure it in this next phase in order to make it the healthiest it can be.”

Of course, until the Prime free dates are rolled out and they get going, there are plenty who might not take comfort from what Espinoza is saying and there are fighters who have taken to social media to discuss their displeasure with their inactivity. It has fallen to Espinoza to placate several of them.

“It’s not a lot of comfort to the fighter who wants to stay active but if you look at the state of it and some of the streamers, DAZN aren’t as active in the US as they once were, so the US market is in an inflection point and those are difficult conversations to have,” he added. 

“But I’ve been fortunate to spend over 20 years in the sport, fortunate enough to work with the biggest fighters, from [Mike] Tyson and [Oscar] De La Hoya to Canelo and Floyd, and to have been involved in literally the biggest events in the history of television. And as challenging as this time may be, this sport can still be healthy. The demographics are strong, the demand is strong, and so this is one where you just have to weather the storm, wait it out while the media business adjusts and we figure out the new business model and hopefully we’re looking back and seeing this as just a blip on the radar.”

Espinoza said Haymon is still calling all the shots and that they are talking on an almost daily basis. Haymon doesn’t do interviews and so it is left to Espinoza, Tim Smith and Ellerbe to field much of the questions around PBC. 

Haymon’s brother, Bobby, was a journeyman welterweight who boxed Sugar Ray Leonard, but suffered with the residual effects of his career, physically and financially.   

Over the years, many PBC fighters have retired comparatively early and they have always been well-compensated. One wonders whether the inactivity of the PBC stable was down to the business-side, or Haymon trying to get his fighters out of the sport and well-paid without it taking from them what it had taken from his sibling. 

“I think that’s a very fair statement and the public and the fans aren’t really privy to a lot of conversations that he [Haymon] and I and others have had with fighters who want to be courageous and want to keep going and are advised, maybe from a health perspective, it’s not there,” Espinoza explained. “It’s not the thing to do. Those are not conversations that we would ever make public and there’s a lot of behind-the-scenes conversations about taking care of your money [for the future] and making sure that while you’re here you’re not just amassing that wealth but maintaining it for the long run because it’s a very short window.”

Undoubtedly it should be the goal of a promoter, a manager and a trainer to get a fighter out of the sport with their health and finances, although Espinoza contended that PBC is often held to a different standard.

“I think all that is true. I think we all remember what the initial response was to PBC and a lot of it was, ‘They’re ruining boxing by overpaying fighters.’ There are promoters that have said that, fans have said that, writers have said that, and for some reason that narrative doesn’t seem to be there today in terms of what the Saudis are doing. It’s an interesting dynamic.”

As with the new influx of money, which followed a huge influx of illegal money from Dubai and the Kinahan Organised Crime Group, PBC started with a huge investment from Waddell & Reed with the notion that $1b was being pumped into the boxing program and its broadcast partnerships. 

Asked whether PBC would have used that money differently with hindsight, Espinoza replied: “That’s a fair question. It’s also an unfair question. Because it’s like asking your investment advisor, in retrospect, could you have done better? Of course, if we knew exactly where the market was going… so I think if you asked PBC that I’d think you’d say some of the things they did worked, some of them didn’t work. But I think they were all reasonable decisions at the time that they were made. Doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed to work, but I think they were risks worth taking. There were certainly smart people behind them saying, ‘This is something different from what’s been done, so let’s try it.’ Some of it panned out, some of it didn’t.”

There are plenty of PBC fighters hoping things will pan out in the coming months. The Charlos have declared that they are ready to return, and Espinoza is excited by both Jermall and Jermell re-emerging.

“I’ve stayed in touch with them,” Espinoza added. “I saw Jermell at the Tank fight and he’s ready to go and I know he’s motivated. He’s disappointed in his performance against Canelo, as everyone else was, and he’s definitely out to prove that that was a fluke. He’s as motivated and anxious to get back in there as ever and there’s a lot of activity available for him; there’s a lot of good fights available for him, at ‘54 or ‘60, wherever he decides. I don’t think you’ll see him at 68 [where he fought Canelo] again. He’s got a lot of mileage left. You’ve never seen Jermell take a significant amount of punishment. He’s still athletic and I think the sport is better when he and his brother are active.” 

Jermall, too, is ready to go. 

“Whether it’s ‘54, ‘60 or ‘68, there are good fights available both inside and outside of PBC. I do think we’ll be seeing them in the relatively near future.”

Will Jermall get to settle his long grudge with Caleb Plant?

“That’s one of the obvious ones. There’s certainly no marketing needed for that one. Those guys have already set it up.”

There are also the likes of Brandon Figueroa, Kyrone Davis, Frank Martin who will want dates.

“As the pace picks up, I think we will return to a normal level of activity and I think a lot of the fighters will be a lot more satisfied when we get there, and the sooner the better,” said Espinoza. “[There are] discussions for multiple PPV and non-PPV dates before the end of the year.”

They include an October PPV and a non-October PPV, too. But first, all eyes will be on Canelo-Berlanga and a September 14 box office date in Las Vegas that goes head-to-head with UFC at the Las Vegas Sphere.

One might call that a typical Las Vegas gamble, while the sport will continue to hope it leads to the high stakes clash with David Benavidez.