Stephen Espinoza on ‘Tank’, ‘Canelo’, Prime Video, Saudi Arabia, Rumors Of Demise & Making Progress

LAS VEGAS – Gervonta “Tank” Davis takes center stage on Saturday night in Las Vegas, headlining the 100th show at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas.

In a business destabilized for many by huge investment from the Middle East, there are moving parts aplenty in boxing.

Stephen Espinoza has seen plenty during his time in boxing, and estimates he might have been at as many as 45 or so of those 100 fight cards at the MGM Grand. 

He’s been back there this week as a consultant for PBC and he assessed the growth of headliner Davis.  

“I think the last missing piece is now in place,” Espinoza said of the Baltimore star. “Up to this point, Tank has become a star, even though he has been a little reserved and even shy at times. What we saw this week is that shyness has gone. He’s very comfortable in his own skin. He’s comfortable joking around, being playful, being relaxed. He’s certainly in his element, and I think as a promotional element, he’s entering his prime. The boxing has been there, his social media activity has been there, now his comfort level feels like he’s truly at ease amongst all of this.”

Davis talked smack throughout Wednesday’s presser to opponent Frank Martin. He spent about 30 more minutes talking to the media after the press conference ended and even went to the public workouts to address fans, something he had not been either billed or instructed to do.

That said, that might have been to make amends for leaving fans disappointed by his no show at the Grand Arrivals on Tuesday, which sucked the air out of the MGM lobby and caused a groan as expectant fans shook their heads and left.

Davis’ unpredictability, sadly in that case, seems to be part of the show and now comes with the territory.

“I think so,” Espinoza added. “I had the conversation with him. Part of it is he was fortunate enough, and you can put me in this category too, we all do things a certain way. He was with Showtime his entire career, on television, and there are certain people he worked with, the way certain things worked, certain structures in place, who knew very much what to expect, and who to expect and how things worked. That’s changed, and that’s an adjustment. It’s a different group. 

“There are different things I’ve had to adjust to that I did differently at Showtime than are being done now with Prime Video with PBC, so I think what we saw in that outburst was a little bit more of a reaction maybe to change than sort of not being used to the way things are being done now.”

Davis had tweeted that he was disappointed with the promotion of the event. Did he specify to Espinoza what? 

“Not in particular. He did say some things about the marketing and promotion but I think it was more a general air of unpredictability. He wasn’t as comfortable with how things were working and the cadence he was used to, because it was second nature before and now it’s not.”

Either way, Tank rolled the dice by letting his fans down early on in fight week, giving himself the job of trying to turn round that goodwill the following day.

“I think he realized that and I think he attempted to make up for it,” Espinoza said. “I didn’t expect him to go to do the public workout after the press conference and he was there and he was joking around and interacting with fans and all of that, so I think in retrospect he probably would want to do that over again.”

And while Davis has been swamped at every turn, by fans and the media, former super middleweight contender David Benavidez has not been far behind as a man in demand. He shares the bill as a co-headliner, now up at light heavyweight against Oleksandr Gvozdyk, and Espinoza thinks that Tank and Benavidez together gives them the bill with the greatest star power of the year to date.

“There have been some very stacked cards this year, Saudi and otherwise, I think in terms of star power I’m not sure there’s anything that matches Tank and Benavidez at the top of the card,” he added. “Give it to both of them for giving up the ego and sharing the spotlight.”

Not only have they shared time in the Gloves Off build-up shows, but they, along with Martin and Gvozdyk, share the fight artwork on the posters. You don’t have to go back too far to think of fighters that would not dream of sharing space on the poster with anyone else.

“Tank is on top and David made that concession, but I don’t think it matters,” Espinoza said. “I don’t think anyone thinks anything less of David or that he’s somehow subjected to being below Tank on this. I mean, it is a true double-header and kudos to both these guys for sharing it and making it a bigger spotlight for both of them.”

And while the celebrities will likely roll in for Tank, thick and fast, all the way through Saturday, Benavidez is on the cusp of being where Davis is.

“I think there’s a different motivation,” said the former Showtime boss. “David Benavidez is a throwback fighter. He obviously wants the Canelo fight, he deserves it, but he’s not waiting. He’s not treading water, he’s not fighting conservatively. ‘Yes I want that fight, but I’m going to take the toughest fights I can.’ Caleb Plant, Demetrius Andrade, moving up to ’75 and probably taking on a much more difficult opponent than he should for his first fight in the weight class, none of that says ‘I’m counting on a Canelo fight’. That says I’m going to fight the biggest fights I can, as frequently as I can, even if it means I’m going to share the spotlight with another fighter.”

Espinoza talks with a guarded optimism. Everything is a work in progress, from the fight cards, to the build-up shows, the strategies and working with Prime Video. This marks the third show in the relationship, following the March Tim Tszyu-Sebastian Fundora bloodbath and the Cinco De Mayo Mexican clash between Canelo Alvarez and Jaime Munguia. 

“It’s definitely become smoother,” Espinoza said of the progress since that first show in March. “We worked on a lot of the kinks. I know Prime Video has learnt some things. We’ve seen additional marketing support, it’s fantastic to go in to Prime Video on Friday and Saturday of fight week and see the massive presence that they give it, and I think we’re all comfortable enough that we’ll be accelerating the pace of the events very shortly. 

“I think once we start getting to August, September, October, we’re going to start seeing non-pay-per-view events, pay-per-view events, with a more regular cadence that resembles what we’re used to, and I think that’s the biggest indicator that everyone is sort of comfortable, has got their sea legs under them and is ready to start running after we walk through these first couple of events.”

The issue with what Espinoza says is none of that fits with those reading the last rites to PBC on social media. For months, the speculation has been bleak. 

“That’s true,” Espinoza laughs. “That’s right. I understand everyone is looking, trying to read the tea leaves and extrapolate doom or gloom from them, so we’ve always said this will start slow. It was walk before we run and there’s a lot to be done, it’s still a massive opportunity that Prime Video brings.”

But while Espinoza remains patient, it is hard to be seen to be waiting with the Saudi Arabian riches flowing forcefully through the sport. With PBC only having three shows so far this year, is there a danger that it will be increasingly hard to compete should the Saudis turn their attention to PBC talent?

For someone like Tank to complain about promotion, Riyadh Season fight commercials are like movies. That makes the climate challenging at best.

“Yeah, I think that’s part of it,” Espinoza said. Then, referring to the uber glamorous commercials, he added: “There are things that are effective promotion and there are things that are sort of attention-grabbing. Spending seven figures on a four- or five-minute video, I’m not sure how that relates to buys but it’s a nice vanity and fantastic production. It’s the budget of a small independent film, or actually a good size independent film.”

Or a good budget for a fight card?

“That as well. I think those are shiny things that get a lot of attention. But I think fundamentally there’s still the grassroots elbow grease that it takes to do the promotion and elevate the fight and fighters themselves.”

In the last few days, there has been talk of Saudi involvement well beyond a few glossy trailers, not least with a holistic restructuring at the top of the sport and bringing all of the major powerbrokers together to work under a single umbrella. 

“There’s been a lot of conversation about changing structure and people rolling up the sport. I’m all for anything that can address the flaws in the organisation of the sport, as long as we don’t bring along more problems,” Espinoza continued. “If we can address the issues, while still maintaining fair compensation for the fighters, some independence, autonomy and control of their careers, and still have the good visibility, marketing and the market platforms they deserve, I think it’s all a positive thing. 

“But trading one set of problems for another is not an improvement.”

With so much being made of the MGM Grand celebrating its 100th boxing event, does Espinoza feel the base of power is shifting? 

“They certainly have a lot of passion, a lot of enthusiasm and they’ve been able to achieve a lot in a very small amount of time, so they’ve seemed to announce their intentions to become a power player, I don’t doubt it. The only thing missing now is the follow through and the long-term commitment and time will tell.”

Are they a threat to promoters, PBC included?

“Not necessarily. I don’t see them saying, ‘Hey, you’re going to sign long-term promotional deals with us and leave all the other promoters’. I think they’re giving select fighters certain opportunities which can be threatening but I don’t see that. I think what they’ve now signalled is they’re looking to work within the established power structure and sort of come up with a structure that maybe benefits everyone.”

That is a quandary as to how that will work, and whether anyone will want to even gently concede any serious ground. These are interesting times. And the speculation has not stopped PBC from trying to forge ahead. 

Originally slated for July, their first Amazon Prime shows will likely kick-off on either August 10 or August 17 and could feature both Caleb Plant and Stephen Fulton on the first show.

Then it will be Mexican Independence weekend, and after a solid Cinco De Mayo show with Canelo-Munguia, does he anticipate the return of free agent Canelo to PBC?

“Look, I’ve been fortunate to have been involved in several Canelo fights and there’s nothing like them in the sport today, but he’s a smart businessman who’s very much in control of his career. He’s just spent some time away on vacation and he’s going to sit down, communicate, choose an opponent and distribution partner very shortly. I think he had a good experience from a financial standpoint, from an event standpoint, it was very successful with the Munguia fight. It’s among his strongest performances from a pay-per-view, so I think the indications are it was a good experience and hopefully there will be another opportunity to work with him and PBC again. 

“At this point, he’s a mature businessman and very much in control of his career and we all know the pool of opponents is relatively small, whether it’s mandatory, whether it’s other guys, we would all come up with the same group of guys, so there’s not likely something out of the blue or out of leftfield and someone will say, ‘I hadn’t thought of that’. I think on the shortlist of opponents would be what everyone would agree.”

Would that include IBF mandatory, little-known William Scull?  

“I put that personally, and not speaking for Canelo, as less likely – not one of the more interesting aspects, but obviously it’s a mandatory so there’s a possibility. [Edgar] Berlanga, Benavidez, and I still keep Benavidez in there because we’ve seen Canelo in his career, he hasn’t run from any challenge and I don’t think he’s running from this one. There’s some negotiating that needs to be done, but I wouldn’t give up on that fight until I see him retired without him having done it.”

It is strange to talk about a fight like Canelo-Munguia in one breath, and then talk about the demise of the company that promoted it in the next, but that’s what happens on social media. Asked whether Espinoza laughed off the critics or whether it had, actually, been a white knuckle ride this year, he gave a measured response.

“I’d say somewhere in between. There’ve been some ridiculous concepts and ridiculous statements from guys who’ve absolutely no knowledge of the industry getting out and having traction, with some abominable takes on the future of the business. We want to be careful because some of these crazy takes and clueless rants, sometimes things take hold and you don’t want fighters believing some of the nonsensical things.

“So you do have to defend and you’ve got to answer some of those sometimes, and you don’t want to feed the trolls too much, but you’ve also got to make sure that one person’s fantasy doesn’t become a perceived reality.”

So things are healthy? 

“They are healthy and my only hesitation is the business as a whole, and the media business, as a whole is going through changes. We’re transitioning away from the loss of HBO in 2018, the loss of Showtime in 2023, those have been the two pillars of the sport, and ESPN is still committed, we’ve got some streamers, but I’d say we haven’t seen a network or platform with the kind of full-throated support that we’ve seen from Showtime and HBO over the last 30, 40 years. In an ideal world, we’d have a couple of those and I’d be very comfortable. But that’s a challenge for everybody, not just PBC.”

The way the sport is being covered is ever changing, too. Espinoza has been happy with PBC’s Gloves Off build-up shows, and like most content providers is trying to find a new way of standing out from the pack, either from competitors or pushing forward and onward from old methods.

“The challenge there, as happy as we were with All Access [the Showtime version of build-up shows], we don’t want to do the same thing, so you can sort of tweak it, improving it without taking away the things that work, and so we experiment a little. We experiment on some of these with no narrator, with a different sort of storytelling structure, and we’ll continue to experiment, but fundamentally it’s about the fighters and their personalities and that’s come through regardless of the format.”

With Davis this week complaining about the promotion, and some fighters revelling in the opportunity to fulfil a lot of media obligations, times have changes. 

In Floyd Mayweather’s day, having made his arrival to kick-off fight week, he would spend 20-30 minutes with key media members giving them everything they needed for the week ahead, thus giving the promotion the sparks needed to carry it through the week. Not many fighters do that today, and Davis didn’t even arrive at his own ‘grand arrival.’

Why are fighters burned out with interviews and reluctant to do them these days, when it never seemed such a demand in the past?

“It’s a good question,” Espinoza replied. “I think there are a lot of little things. There is clickbait and the propensity of some to sort of, I mean it happens to me and it happens to fighters, to take one line and make it a headline out of context. I think there’s some guys who are sort of mailing it in and not doing thoughtful questions and putting filler questions out there, but I think part of it is educating them [the fighters]. Floyd got it instinctually. It’s not fun. It’s not fun to answer the same questions and keep in mind every time you’re answering them, you’re talking to a different audience. 

“It maybe repetitive for the fighter, but it’s new for each reporter and each audience they bring. So, yeah, we got spoilt with Floyd just because he intuitively understood it, and even Floyd had challenges. He’d be like, ‘Look, I maybe two hours late, but once I get there, I’m gonna work my ass off’, which is true. And so he had the capacity to turn an angry mob into a very satisfied group.”

One wonders if PBC is still in a proving stage to Prime Video. It is, of course, early days, but they had great fights on March 30, Canelo delivered in May, and now it is over to Tank and Benavidez on Saturday night to show the platform that boxing is worth their time and investment. Espinoza hasn’t seen the shows as auditions as such, but he understands why that question is put to him.

“Not explicitly but I think implicitly yes,” he admitted. “Because I look at it having been in that chair [as a network boss]. From the Video side I can say there’s been fantastic action, as long as you’re not squeamish. The first fight, fantastic, starting with that Curmel Moton fight, all the way through to a bloody main event. You had a fantastic, huge fight with Canelo in a very competitive, exciting fight, you’ve got a two really stacked cards with stacked undercards, and you’ve got an atmosphere where there’s a lot of activity, so I don’t think it’s lost on anybody that going into the Tank-Benavidez card, boxing is in the New York Times. 

“I’m not saying that directly impacts, but looking at all the activity around it, if I’m an outsider looking in, I’m saying, ‘Wow, there’s a business opportunity here’. There are fight cards that people are willing to pay for, there’s good action and there are clearly deep-pocketed people in the industry who are interested in investing in the sport, and that is a good thing for the sport overall.”